I've managed to figure out something, spells have to be verbal or somatic, and thats about it, I think.

I mean, how do you cast two spells at once (which it seems you can in skyrim) that are of different schools?

It seems that you can't just will the spell to work by thinking about it, so there has to be some other outlying force. I thing this because you have to buy spells, spells scrolls, etc, that they do need to be either verbal, somatic, and/or have an ingredient.

So, I'd like your speculation in it.

silence is said to stop magic caster and also physically make an area silent (for example when the Dagi sneak up on the Bosmer in Mixed unit tactics)
so it's verbal.

Really? I thought incantations weren't important, and that it was more about your willpower and realization of the spells effect. Which explains why High Elves, even though being the best spellcasters are also the most weakest to magicka, and why Orcs and Ogres have such a high resistance to it.


"Your imagination and your willpower are the keys. There is no need for a spell to give you a resistance to air, or a resistance to flowers, and after you cast the charm, you must forget there is even a need for a spell to give you resistance to fire. Do not confuse what I am saying: resistance is not about ignoring the fire's reality. You will feel the substance of flame, the texture of it, its hunger, and even the heat of it, but you will know that it will not hurt or injure you." - Sotha Sil


“Fear does not break spells, but doubt and incompetence are the great enemies of any spellcaster." - Sotha Sil

I've always imagined it as depending on how you're doing it, you channel magicka through your body and out into a spell-shape. Your hands and mouth sculpt the shape and then you release it and it does its thing.

For me, I'd say my idea of how it works is what MD said, but to elaborate, the hands mold the power and shape, while the mouth gives it the desired form. Also imagination. Also, if you cannot give the desired spell a form, it's just potential energy waiting to be used.

Of course, I figure the difference between a peasant and a spell user is like comparing someone who cannot play music to a virtuoso. In fact, I'd say music and magic are nearly the same, but this also is kind of Tolkeinesque.

Lots of "how does magic work?" questions floating about recently. Ah well.

How do spells work?
Simple answer:

You mentioned two components: verbal and somantic. What are these components of? Rituals. What are rituals? They are sequences of enacted symbols. What are symbols? They are powertools/leverage in a world of ideas. A magical world is a world of ideas.

In short: spell = (mini)ritual.

They work by magic.

/thread.

I know this, I've been playing D&D with some friends for the past decade, so I'm familiar with that.

What I'm wondering, is how you cast two spells at once, do you do perform the spell, then kind of hold the power in your hand until you decide to release it? Then cast another one, then release both of those at once?

And why can anyone use a scroll, while to use a spell of the same power, they have to have significant training.

And just how short are the spell rituals? In the games, they can be cast in a second (or a minute depending if you go by in-game time). I'd assume it would take more time for a Legenary Detect Life spell, than a Greater Detect Life spell.

I'd have to see how the mechanics work with the animations before I speculate on dual casting, but per the power=time thing, that's a purely D&D convention. Nothing says that it takes the same amount of time for both, the difference being in the skill with sculpting the spell. D&D rituals are meant to be complex magical events that require setting up with the proper reagents, chanting in mysterious tongues and the like. TES spells are more fueled by imagination and so once you have the spell in mind, it's just a matter of channeling the magicka through your body and into the shape for entering reality.

And with the scroll, the power and spell-shape is enchanted on the page and so you are only releasing it, something anyone can do, but to cast a spell it takes willpower and intelligence to conceive the spell and hold enough magicka in your body, and skill level to shape it into the desired form.

Picture someone doing the sign of the cross with one hand and tracing a hieroglyph with the other (both constitute mini-rituals). It's gotta take some practice but shouldn't be undoable.



Sacred/magical scripture is already loaded with power on it's own. You don't need to know what your doing you only need to read it. Or sometimes you only need to see it (some buddhist rituals involve watching sacred texts on large wheels spin before your eyes, supernaturally imbuing you with their wisdom).



In real life a healing ceremony (for example) could take several days worth of daylong chanting. In video games this is considerd boring and impractical. Take from that what you will.

So, if you can just imagine a spell, why do you have to buy it? How do you learn new spells from books (spell tomes) or merchants (In Daggerfall, when you bought a spell, its said "you wrote the spell down in your griomoire")?

I still say that its not a matter of willing the magic into existence, to do what you want. Or there would be no need for the mages guild to regulate the control of magic for the public.

I don't really understand your last sentence. Are you saying that once you know a spell, you just have think about casting that spell, then you'll cast it? Or are you saying that casting a spell is only a matter of will, and you can just will it into existence?

It's mostly mental, but there must be an incantation. proof for this is the varied uses of silence.

I imagine the guild maintains an apparatus that lets you experiment with new spell-shapes, but require a fee to use to help keep the guild in business.

Magicka is abundant. It comes out of the sun and stars and bathes Tamriel in it. Magicka is just Potential energy though, it takes your mind and imagination to will the spell into existence, to pour Potential energy into a form that gets you the required result.


I'm saying more is involved. I'm not certain about the particulars, but willpower and intelligence is involved in not only determining skill (which also contributes), but also amount and frequency of Magicka you can use. Whereas with a scroll (and a cast on use enchantment from Morrowind), the spell and required Magicka is already in the proper spell shape in the item. It's just a matter of releasing it.

I don't see incantation being vital except to aid the spellcaster in his visualization. Remember that magical talent is actually a rare gift in ES, few have the capacity to be spell casters, and even among those fewer still have the ability to be great or powerful spell casters. So all the raw power is dependent on the persons physical talent for magic, the schools are there to of course maximize and better control magic.

In my thinking you only need incantations if you're doing some of the greater power spells, since they're like theurgy. Basically invoking a higher power like Shezzar's Shield on one of those rune structures.

Is it possible that the reason people buy spell shapes from shops then rather simply imagining it for themselves is the complexity of the spell shape? that anyone can take clay in their hands and make a cup but even the simply shape of a cup is terribly difficult for many people (myself included, pancake shaped cups are not ideal).

I imagine spells are not simply a "think fire, fire here, throw fire" device but can be as complex as the spell caster (who created the spell) liked. How imaginative and how talented you are in shaping the spell must have a massive hinderence on their mass production, someone with a lack of talent would not be able to manufacture a particularly good spell, the spell may have notable flaws such as it wastes more mana with little reward, a more talented spell maker could have a spell which grants more power in the effect but less magicka costs depending on how the spell was made.

An inept healer could require a heal spell to take more time to cast due to their inability to gain much power for the effect, maybe (like the pancake cup) magicka is simply not stable in the shape and thus requires more to grant the effect. I can see from this how the mages guild would have such a monopaly on spells, professional well trained spellcrafters making newer and more efficient spells with multiple effects would easily oust any spell you cared to try and imagine up yourself. (why you buy your cups then make your own i suppose).

What's the basis for saying that the capacity to be a spell caster is rare? everything I've seen implies the opposite, that the capacity for spell casting is common. Even a beggar could cast a few spells.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arena-spells

Spells in Tamriel, unlike some other worlds, are extremely unforgiving. They are wielded with no limitations such as memorization, required objects or components, hand gestures, etc. There are no level limitations, nor are there strictures on what type of spells can be cast or used. A mage need only have the magical energy to cast a spell, and he or she can cast it.

So, magic is psychic, like the force. What exactly do we buy a spell for, the rights to realize it?

Thats what I'm wondering.

I much rather prefer the D&D method to the "think, it happens" style of spellcasting (though Dragon age did this decently).

In the D&D method, pretty much damn near anything can happen with magic... You just need to know the spell, and have the ability to hold it if need be. The difference between the right vowel and the wrong one could mean you'd cast a completely different spell. Imagine trying to cast a fireball, but instead you pronounce it "uh" instead of "ah" and you set your crotch on fire. Or you make the somatic motion with one finger instead of two, you might change your hair color.

But, there is a limit to that. The strength of the caster relates to how powerful the spell is. In the mage-fair, they would compete to see who could make a bigger fireball (using the same spell)

And why, if there is no limit, and is psychic, would we need a grimoire in DF (arguably the most RP heavy of the TES games)?





Or a simpler explanation would be that its up to the player to decide.


P.S. Figured out how the whole "two spells cast at once" would work. In D&D, a spell would be memorized/prepared then cast with a command word. You could cast more than one spell if you used the same command word for both. Image how awesome it would be to cast a mirror image spell and an ignite spell on an arrow that you shot.

From a D&D perspective, I've always imagined it as this:

Wizards require a lot of study, and rituals in order to preform their spells.
Sorcerers use their inherant talent, and are able to cast spells using pure willpower. (for the most part)

So, I consider the actual magic used in TES gameplay to be more similiar to sorcery than wizardry.

I always imagined purchasing a spell was similar to purchasing skill increases from trainers. If we all have the potential for magic, paying someone to realize that potential or even introduce you to possibilities unthought makes sense.

The Spell Book however makes less sense to me that purchasing spells from merchants.

Yeah, I think TES has been slowly moving away from their D&D roots each game, it was obviously a big influence with Daggerfall, but now with Skyrim not even including attributes, things are becoming very different than a D&D style game (with unique setting and lore).

Edit: I dont want anyone to be offended by me comparing the two different game series, I'm just trying to make an observation. I like both games, and when looking at Daggerfall, it seems quite easy for someone to use it's setting, races, and skills and turn it into a D&D homebrew. Now, however, TES seems to have truly become its own type of game.

The Infernal City helps with this. Apparently, it works by convincing yourself that the spell is true, using some sort of mental sequence of varying complexity. Buying the spell is just having someone tell you the sequence.

I think casting a spell is somewhat like your brain using nerve signals in a way. Like if let's say you wanted to do something simple like make a thumbs up, all you'd need to do is picture it in your mind then your brain would send signals to your hand making a thumbs up; and there are more difficult hand gestures that require you practice more before you can actually do them. Just like in Nirn how most people can channel their magicka enough to make a simple fire ball, but only a few could conjure up a Daedra, or cast something like "Wizards Fury".

Like closing a circuit, then? Where magic is the signal, from the caster to the [dead man].