So how's the NCR bad/evil? : Fallout: New Vegas

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:44 am

But its not a democracy. I dont call invading other lands for resources democratic. The NCR can call themselves whatever ythey want, but the fact is they are no better than the legion, invading and exploiting the peole for resources.
Marcus said it. And House said it, they even admit they want the strip. So what do they do they have a treaty with house, then violate it by getting you to be thier assassin. Yeah real democratic, if by democratic you mean "you have a choice, you can do what I say, or you can get shot".

Is US a democracy?

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:19 am

Is US a democracy?

No, the US is a Republic, most people get that wrong, Americans included

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:54 am

No, the US is a Republic, most people get that wrong, Americans included

Representative democracy.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:21 am

Representative democracy.

Nah, it's more a constitutional republic if you want to be specific.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:34 am

Nah, it's more a constitutional republic if you want to be specific.

Well.. if you wanna get all... you know, technical and nerdy. :confused:

My definitions:
republic: not a monarchy
democracy: where people get to vote for their representatives.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:27 pm

Well.. if you wanna get all... you know, technical and nerdy. :confused:

My definitions:
republic: not a monarchy
democracy: where people get to vote for their representatives.

I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America
And TO THE REPUBLIC for which it stands,
one Nation, Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

We vote for our Presidents and Congressmen, Governors, Senators, Mayors, etc......in a 'Democratic Process' in our Republic.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:33 am

However we're being asked if they are evil, not what their status of democracy is.
The answer best given is no.. But some individuals / groups are.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:06 pm

Gah no politics no politics no politics!!!! eeeeeek lock in 5 4 3 2....

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:19 am

I feel the NCR is bound to become ruined, why? They mimic the old worlds government, and we KNOW where that got us.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:08 pm

In many ways the ncr is alot like the imperials in elder scrolls.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:06 am

In many ways the ncr is alot like the imperials in elder scrolls.

STOP! You've violited our biased imperialist expansionist laws, pay the corrupt officer a fine or get shot as your sentence, your stolen pencil is now forfeit.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:04 am

I can see it in some respects, but the Imperials tend to give more freedom to groups than the NCR.
My biggest gripe is that for a Achocit personallity the NCR are almost as likely as the legion to restrict the freedoms you enjoy.

Their expansionist leanings for the betterment and security for all, is really like the Imperials true.
Trade is also the same, as is the harvesting of raw matarials.
I say you're astute in the most part.
Just I don't get the same feeling from Imperials as I do the NCR.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:38 pm

Like most governments, they are not benign.

While most perception is simply a matter of point of view, if that view is from under a jackboot one might be forgiven for a negative opinion.

Like any other regime, those subject to its rule must themselves decide what trade-offs they are willing to make: Anarchy on one extreme to totalitarianism on the other. Your perception of the government depends on toward which extreme you lean, and upon how well they provide that level of government.

As for killing women and children (and it is an arguable point whether that is any worse than killing men) it is, again, a matter of degree; as well as the motivation.

All governments kill. Much of the distinction lies in whether the killing is murder—even religious texts make that distinction.

On the Bittersprings matter, I'd agree that it's no worse to kill a child, or a woman, than it is to kill a man. What I think made it so bad was that they weren't armed or out to fight-that much makes them (essentially) just civilians. And while, nowadays, it's common, I still find it ethically wrong.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:23 pm

Spoiler

They assassinate Mr house. Purely because he wouldnt bend over backwards and let them take over the strip. Either way tey would have killed him.
They are incapable of defending the people.
They didnt domesticate tribals e.g Vipers, Jakcels, Khans. Just kill them. House in 7 years domesticated 3.
They cant keep thier treaties. Again back to House, they agreed they would not attack eachother, so they just hired an assassin to off mr house. How can you respect people like that ?
Hell I helped them out, was Idolized, I went down the house route, they then completely shunned me, for not doing what they want.

The once I kept are filled with misconceptions.

Spoiler

House is not planning to be nice with the NCR during the coming battle. Sure the quests lacks finding out what's being planned before you go rambo, but it's not like House is going to play nice during the battle of Hoover Dam and let them have their way.
They are reasonably apt at defending their people. However inside the Mojave they are hard pressed, between the Legion and it's spies and raider and coordinated Fiend attacks and lacking in personnel (mostly for game-play reasons).
They probably domesticated tribals. Raider however not so much. Remember the Viper, Jackals and Khans aren't some poor old tribe eking an hunter gather existence in the desert, they're criminal predators robbing, killing and [censored] where they can.
One could say the same about House. If you are not able to come to a diplomatic solution his securitrons are not going to hug the NCR into thinking otherwise. I'd say that this turn of events isn't also according to the treaty. Though in Mr. House's defense it's not like they were going to be okay with the status quo.
Well you don't really get vilified, but what did you think was going to happen that they'd happily invite you over for coffee and cake after you basically go work for the competition. "Oh sure you can work with House, who has a conflicting agenda to us, we're just peachy. Why don't you do that vital job for us that would come to bite us in the ass if you sabotaged it for House."

But its not a democracy. I dont call invading other lands for resources democratic. The NCR can call themselves whatever ythey want, but the fact is they are no better than the legion, invading and exploiting the peole for resources.
Marcus said it. And House said it, they even admit they want the strip. So what do they do they have a treaty with house, then violate it by getting you to be thier assassin. Yeah real democratic, if by democratic you mean "you have a choice, you can do what I say, or you can get shot".

Countries tend to expand, especially if there isn't an actual power/government in the place you are expanding to.
They're a growing nation in need of resources and they seek to solidify their position. Exploiting is a bit of an exaggeration, it's not like they're going to force everyone into slavery, bleed the place dry and then leave.
Once that Mojave is part of the NCR, it will have to be developed as well. It's citizens will be NCR citizens with the duties and rights that go along with it.
I thought the way it's being presented in game so far is that California isn't a bad place to live at all. That's the way things will probably go in the Mojave in time.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:12 pm

People hate an Invader, even a benovolent one.

The NCR are interlopers and that is why people question what they do. No matter how altruistic their intentions, either people will take it the wrong way, people will spin things they way that they want, or someone along the way will screw thing up and make it look bad for everyone.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:56 am

Spoiler

Well you don't really get vilified, but what did you think was going to happen that they'd happily invite you over for coffee and cake after you basically go work for the competition. "Oh sure you can work with House, who has a conflicting agenda to us, we're just peachy. Why don't you do that vital job for us that would come to bite us in the ass if you sabotaged it for House."

I'd buy that if you were doing a Legion playthrough, but on the grounds you're playing nice with the NCR and playing on Houses side, only one or two end missions counter the NCRs moves

Spoiler

THAW

1- Get the chip and upgrade the Securitrons on The Strip: Doesn't really conflict with the NCR
2- Upgrade the Securitrons at The Fort: Doesnt really conflict per se, it adds to Houses arsenal. Well, it prevents them from assaulting the Strip
3- Enlist or Neutralize The Boomers: Considering it drops bombs on The Fort, I'd say House is agreeable on this
4- Destroy the BoS: Same here, as the NCR has no love for the BoS
5- Find out what's going on with the Omertas: I can't see this really conflicting at all with NCR
6- Save Kimball (Or let him die) Saving Kimball gives the NCR someone to blame when it all fails, and it saves alot of face politically, I'd say it's an NCR agreeable
7- Install the Override Module: I'm not sure how this works exactly, but I'd imagine House wont siphon ALL the power from the station, only some.
All or Nothing- Assuming you play nice with the NCR, you can basically just waltz through half the battle, talk your way into the control room, then exit, then talk out with Lanius and then talk it out with Oliver, all in all if you did this it would save face with NCR-New Vegas relations (Which would be VERY beneficial in Houses favor.)

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:32 am

1. True.
2. Not true, at least imo, and having destroyed / saved them both on runs for all.
3. Depends on what they were promised afterwards tbh.
4. He still could have used them, and if not done right could end up with a stronger technological NCR, but mostly true yes.
5. True, if done right and it does not conflict really.
6. True, no consequence either way.
7. Massive betrayal and power shift no going back from this, one gets the shaft instant future schism.

What this shows is that no matter how smart we play, and how we cherry pick quests.
One faction is the defacto ruler by the end, not really a smart ending imo.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:13 pm

I'd buy that if you were doing a Legion playthrough, but on the grounds you're playing nice with the NCR and playing on Houses side, only one or two end missions counter the NCRs moves

Still that means you are essentially playing for the other team. The quests warning you of continuing to work for whoever, speaks of their spies and it would be a little weird that they suddenly be alright with you knowing you work for the other party.

Would you allow an employee of a competing business work freelance for you while keeping his position at the other company?

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:52 am

Still that doesn't mean you are essentially playing for the other team. They quests warning you of continuing to work for whoever speaks of their spies and it would be a little weird that they suddenly be alright with you.

Would you allow a employee of a competing business work freelance for you while keeping his position at the other company?

Honestly, I wouldnt care, seeing as I only played nice with the NCR while I work for Mr. House just to keep all the good traders open to me. :laugh:

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:23 am

Honestly, I wouldnt care, seeing as I only played nice with the NCR while I work for Mr. House just to keep all the good traders open to me. :laugh:

Wait you wouldn't care to hire someone who might be spying for the competition or you wouldn't care about the NCR, because you work for House?

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:40 pm

Wait you wouldn't care to hire someone who might be spying for the competition or you wouldn't care about the NCR, because you work for House?

The latter, despite the games rules, I like to pretend my character is an agent, pulling the NCR on a string, and at the other end of the string they're chasing? Mr. House :spotted owl:

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:36 pm

Still that means you are essentially playing for the other team. The quests warning you of continuing to work for whoever, speaks of their spies and it would be a little weird that they suddenly be alright with you knowing you work for the other party.

Would you allow an employee of a competing business work freelance for you while keeping his position at the other company?

This was the biggest blooming McGuffin of the lot, more so than hit squads.
Spies everywhere?
Where ? and for what is my reply.
I saved your bum.. saved his bum, made this lot disapear magically for every faction.
Let him die while being in a locked totally secure casino in the middle of a city and having absolutely no influence on the hit !
Avoided being seen by everyone, wore a disguse.

Nope you were spotted despite not actually hurting any factions plans.
That's a McGuffin with a loophole the size of the black hole at the centre of our universe.

NCR could be pure evil, CL may be, house could turn out to be.
One thing I do know is that they all have X ray specs.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:04 pm

The once I kept are filled with misconceptions.

Spoiler

House is not planning to be nice with the NCR during the coming battle. Sure the quests lacks finding out what's being planned before you go rambo, but it's not like House is going to play nice during the battle of Hoover Dam and let them have their way. House wouldn't have anything against the NCR, if they weren't trying to take Vegas from him.
They are reasonably apt at defending their people. However inside the Mojave they are hard pressed, between the Legion and it's spies and raider and coordinated Fiend attacks and lacking in personnel (mostly for game-play reasons).http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmAF4NIsFhc watch from 1:10 onwards.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:21 am

God house looked creepy in that vid. Also they showed him in there kinda killed the mystery. Glad I never saw that.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:59 am

@madhocmayhem: Yeah it's a McGuffin and a fair one (I was confounded that in DX:IW everybody was still counting on me to back them up at the last minute despite my earlier crusades and backstabbing against them).
Is it really so hard to see that the other factions are keeping an eye on you and what you do. Is it that weird that they don't want you to work for them if you back up a adversary/competitor?

@rusina:

Spoiler

In regards to house they are expansionist to a fault, but I doubt his long term plans had them controlling everything except Vegas. The final mission has him using Hoover Dam. He was always just buying his time until the Platinum Chip arrived.
The video doesn't really jive with what's presented in game. Chief Hanlon makes a note that they could be doing a lot better if they could just get powerful people back home to actually deploy more elite troops and better equipment. Their actual territory is apparently a pretty safe place. It's also a matter of circumstance that's doing them in in the Mojave. They are spreading themselves thin, tough.