So how's the NCR bad/evil? : Fallout: New Vegas

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:55 pm

I'm not trying to start a flame war, or be a [censored], I honestly just don't know enough about the NCR, so I don't get why people trash the NCR. Only bad I've heard about them(from Papa Khan) is that they kill women and children, but I didn't think that was true.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:41 am

Spoiler forum...

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:42 pm

Some articles at this place to look on are:

NCR
Bittersprings
Shady Sands
Tandi

Those are a few useful ones to brush up on.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:11 pm

Spoiler

They assassinate Mr house. Purely because he wouldnt bend over backwards and let them take over the strip. Either way tey would have killed him.
They pretty much enslaved vault city, they hired mercs to stage attacks, and offered protection from them, after the attacks they joined the NCR.
They are incapable of defending the people.
They put themselves before oothers and its like Marcus said, if you have land they want, they will take it. This is proven by the strip, the Mojave, Vault city.
They didnt domesticate tribals e.g Vipers, Jakcels, Khans. Just kill them. House in 7 years domesticated 3.
They cant keep thier treaties. Again back to House, they agreed they would not attack eachother, soo they just hired an assassin to off mr house. How can you respect people like that ?
They are corrupt, complete cass quest. diplomatically. They dont punish the CC or van graffss, just blackmail them for cheaper deals.
Also if you dont make the follows help the ncr, they kick them out of the Mojave. That says alot considering the followers help everyone and thats just because they didnt help NCR. Your with ncr or against them.
Hell I helped them out, was Idolized, I went down the house route, they then completely shunned me, for not doing what they want.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:23 pm

It's mostly perspective one route I loved them and got dissapointed later on.
The other time I was jaded and took different skill sets and saw a darker side, but found it less bad later on.
They however are not really evil in many senses, not as a whole, more neutral grey.

Then others have a different sense of evil, they see big goverment and corruption as more evil than other forms of it based on RL bias.
Myself I go against the flow whatever is considered true, that's what you argue against...
Untill someone agrees with you then you switch sides.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:13 pm

I hate them mostly because they make snide remarks against me and don't give me free awesome when I demand it. :swear:

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:10 pm

I'm not trying to start a flame war, or be a [censored], I honestly just don't know enough about the NCR, so I don't get why people trash the NCR. Only bad I've heard about them(from Papa Khan) is that they kill women and children, but I didn't think that was true.

There is no good or bad in Fallout. It's all about the player's perspective, hence the genre RPG.
The NCR is a somewhat corrupt government craving too much power, but for a reason. The wasteland isn't a trip to the Bahamas you know.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:10 am

*cough* Bittersprings *cough*

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:27 pm

The Bittersprings massacre was true. Also their govronment is slightly corrupt and ruthless

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:17 am

Like most governments, they are not benign.

While most perception is simply a matter of point of view, if that view is from under a jackboot one might be forgiven for a negative opinion.

Like any other regime, those subject to its rule must themselves decide what trade-offs they are willing to make: Anarchy on one extreme to totalitarianism on the other. Your perception of the government depends on toward which extreme you lean, and upon how well they provide that level of government.

As for killing women and children (and it is an arguable point whether that is any worse than killing men) it is, again, a matter of degree; as well as the motivation.

All governments kill. Much of the distinction lies in whether the killing is murder—even religious texts make that distinction.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:09 am

You can get a different perspective from one of the Powder Gangers regarding the NCR Correctional Facility. He says that he didn't see a whole lot of "correcting" going on, just slave labor. You could argue that this is morally on par with the Legion's practice of slavery, the difference being that the Legion calls it what it is.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:21 am

The NCR is founded on some great ideals (democracy, no slavery, no sixism, etc.) and there are some really great people in the NCR (Hsu comes to mind) but their execution falls flat and they just aren't very effective. I wouldn't consider them flat out bad, just not good for the wasteland.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:03 am

How they pay Sloan's quarry workers with NCR money that's worth about half as much as caps (the dominant currency in the Mojave) isn't exactly nice.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:52 pm

NCR is just a big dissapointment. They try to help the residents of the Mojave but end up making a mess. I now direct the rest of my post to the topic: Legion or NCR Debate.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:41 am

NCR's gone downhill ever since Tandi passed away.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:43 pm

You can get a different perspective from one of the Powder Gangers regarding the NCR Correctional Facility. He says that he didn't see a whole lot of "correcting" going on, just slave labor. You could argue that this is morally on par with the Legion's practice of slavery, the difference being that the Legion calls it what it is.

Only if you want to ignore the fairly major difference of the Powder Gangers being convicted criminals working off their sentences rather than anyone the Legion doesn't have another use for.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:12 am

NCR's gone downhill ever since Tandi passed away.

That's definitely not far from the truth. I don't remember, was it under Tandi's presidency that the NCR annexed Vault City?

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:22 am

You can get a different perspective from one of the Powder Gangers regarding the NCR Correctional Facility. He says that he didn't see a whole lot of "correcting" going on, just slave labor. You could argue that this is morally on par with the Legion's practice of slavery, the difference being that the Legion calls it what it is.

Except what do the supposed downtrodden slave laborers do when they gain their freedom? They gather up a whole pile of high explosives, then take over a town; murdering the sheriff in the process; and attempt to coerce another town into giving up a survivor from a trade caravan they attacked; which they apparently do on a regular basis. There is also circumstantial evidence that they [censored] female caravaners. Hardly the actions of a group of good-hearted people being unfairly treated

The NCR has many detractors, and many make good points. The Powder Gangers, however, are just making excuses to justify their sociopathic agenda.

([censored] is censored? You gotta be kidding)

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:07 pm

They are not evil, but they are not the goody two shoes they like to pretend to be. Like people in this thread have pointed out, they are greedy and corrupt people who are not afraid to kill others if they gain something from it. They have only gotten worse since Tandi's death.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:59 pm

They're not evil.
They're dysfunctional, broken, exploiting others for selfish reasons, but the majority of NCR is still not evil, I'd say 3% of NCR are "evil".
The rest are just following the laws and structure and hoping for the best.
Like, if a high ranking officer in their army told a soldier to kill a child then if he didn't do it he would be hanged after court marshal.
The soldier ain't evil, it's the officer that's evil, or maybe the politician who told the officer to tell the soldier that is evil.
The puppeteers are the one's that are greedy and not caring much for others.
So entire NCR?
Nope.
around 5% or less?
Yup.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:54 am

NCR's gone downhill ever since Tandi passed away.

Her ideals long since replaced by pragmatism, she was not below forging a deal with New Reno to bully Vault City into joining the NCR and supplying it with their superior medical technology.

I disagree. What Tandi di was no better than enslaving them. It wasnt democracy, and shows how the ncr is, and was. A greedy, power hungy, bully "democracy". Sorry NCR has never been good. I hope after New vegas they crumble, the signs are there, and after losing half its army to the mojave, yeah thats got to hurt. And the legion would still exist. NCR is will fall. Besides notice how the NCR perfectly goes with "war, war never changes" they are following the steps of the old American government.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:05 pm

They're not evil.
They're dysfunctional, broken, exploiting others for selfish reasons, but the majority of NCR is still not evil, I'd say 3% of NCR are "evil".
The rest are just following the laws and structure and hoping for the best.
Like, if a high ranking officer in their army told a soldier to kill a child then if he didn't do it he would be hanged after court marshal.
The soldier ain't evil, it's the officer that's evil, or maybe the politician who told the officer to tell the soldier that is evil.
The puppeteers are the one's that are greedy and not caring much for others.
So entire NCR?
Nope.
around 5% or less?
Yup.

Yes I have to say this is spot on, and really well put.

» Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:46 am

I disagree. What Tandi di was no better than enslaving them. It wasnt democracy, and shows how the ncr is, and was. A greedy, power hungy, bully "democracy". Sorry NCR has never been good. I hope after New vegas they crumble, the signs are there, and after losing half its army to the mojave, yeah thats got to hurt. And the legion would still exist. NCR is will fall. Besides notice how the NCR perfectly goes with "war, war never changes" they are following the steps of the old American government.

Atleast then the NCR could keep it's [censored] together. Like Caesar said, it was more like a monarchy than a democracy before her death. But now when it is truly a democracy, it is being weakened by infighting between politicians and corruption.

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:30 pm

Atleast then the NCR could keep it's [censored] together. Like Caesar said, it was more like a monarchy than a democracy before her death. But now when it is truly a democracy, it is being weakened by infighting between politicians and corruption.

But its not a democracy. I dont call invading other lands for resources democratic. The NCR can call themselves whatever ythey want, but the fact is they are no better than the legion, invading and exploiting the peole for resources.
Marcus said it. And House said it, they even admit they want the strip. So what do they do they have a treaty with house, then violate it by getting you to be thier assassin. Yeah real democratic, if by democratic you mean "you have a choice, you can do what I say, or you can get shot".

» Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:31 pm

But its not a democracy. I dont call invading other lands for resources democratic. The NCR can call themselves whatever ythey want, but the fact is they are no better than the legion, invading and exploiting the peole for resources.
Marcus said it. And House said it, they even admit they want the strip. So what do they do they have a treaty with house, then violate it by getting you to be thier assassin. Yeah real democratic, if by democratic you mean "you have a choice, you can do what I say, or you can get shot".

House is no dummy, despite the NCR thinking so. He points out to us that the only reason the NCR even thought of parley with House is because they wanted to cover their rears so that they can first take out the Legion, then, when they are gone, they'll assault the Strip. Frankly I find House to be a very brilliant Machiavelli businessman, the NCR is using him, unbeknownst it is HE who is using THEM via their economic resources. House is further aided by the fact that Kimball is an obnoxious expansionist, so he won't give up on the Dam and Vegas campaign, as such, the soldiers are there longer, and that means the more troops that are going to go to The Strip STILL furthering his economy.