Thu'um represents a challenge for me in terms of how to RP it and not take advantage of it. It's like a spell but without any need for magicka or stamina, it's a powerful attack that can come at any time and one that appears to have an infinite number of uses. It effectively gives combat characters, who have no knowledge of magical spells and stuff like that the ability to have a non-melee/bow attack.

Already it sounds overpowered, it has no obvious disadvantage - You can "shout" it whenever you want, whether it's exhausted or near death. There are no rules as to how you can use it.

From what I have figured out in Skyrim, the Thu'um is not something everyone is aware of. It appears to be quite a secretive ordeal - With you having to prove yourself to the greybeards before you're allowed to continue training. I have also yet to come across any books detailing the Thu'um so training outside of the greybeards would appear to be something rarely experienced. It was also noted that the greybeards mentioned how long it took to master a simple shout, even the very first word was said to be extremely difficult and to take many years of hard study.

My question is how hard should it be to use Thu'um? Like magic, we expect characters who are well versed in schools of magic to at least have a history of study or practice and to show that through study. The same thing for melee and ranged combat. To expect a gladiator to be a master of conjuration is just impractical as they wouldn't have time to study that school of magic.

How do we control the Thu'um? Unrelenting Force, the Fus Roh Dah Thu'um takes around 30-40 seconds to recharge. Making it quite easy to rinse and repeat. When should we as GM's limit the control of it?

My problem with the Thu'um is there is no viable way of me telling someone they are ubering. As a GM, I am in charge of making sure everyone is having fun and the enemies are challenging and engaging. If someone is just walking around casting fire breath at everything they see. I need to tell them to stop ubering and so and so.

How would you RP Thu'um? As a GM, what would make you accept a sheet with Thu'um on it? How would you control someone's use of Thu'um in your RP?

Oh get over yourself.

So, they're really just Spellswords and Battlemages with a PhD in Manliness.


Well, it's nowhere near as versatile as magic, and you can use normal magic whenever you want (As long as you have magicka)... But from what we've seen from a Gameplay stance on Thu'um, it looks like that instead of having to rely on an arbitrary "magicka pool", you can't shout incessantly: it takes quite a substantial amount of time between shouts, and the more powerful the shout, the longer it takes before you can shout again. Kind of like having an independent "magicka pool" strictly for Thu'um use that you have to wait to recharge completely before you can use it again.

In combat, thirty seconds is a significant amount of time.

Outside of combat, Thu'um makes for little more than a glorified party trick.


From what I can tell, Thu'um does need to initially be studied like magic. Unlike magic, though, it requires a minimum amount of Manliness to use. While you can learn the very basics of Thu'um from bookwork and secluded practice, however, you need to really work on and master the use of the language in battle, when you really mean what you say.



The way you handle someone who's just walking around casting Firebreath at everything they see is handled the exact same way you handle someone who walks around stabbing everything they see. Try knowing the abilities of your player's characters and design encounters based around that, instead of going "OH NOES! NERFBAT TIEM!" and trying to force everyone to conform to an arbitrary, narrow profile of character archetypes that you believe are "balanced".

The time to decide whether Thu'um's acceptable is at character submission. But then, it's not from a balance standpoint: it's based on verisimilitude and the scope of the RP. Only the manliest of the manliest men (Or equally manly women) in Tamriel can use Thu'um: it makes sense to restrict it if a particular character having it would give the feeling of "Everyone and their grandma is able to use the voice."

Only a few men per generation can use Thu'um. If your RP doesn't allow for notable heroes, warlords, or other such Manly Men, then you shouldn't have to worry about Thu'um.

Thu'um is just a rare thing all around man. 99% of the people who use it are greybeards who do not leave the mountain. Morihaus (who accompanied Pelinal Whitestrake) used it. It was used during a battle in one of the timeline RP's a few years ago, when a Nordic army had greybeards. That was before all of its abilities were known. It was used to propel cannonballs back towards the enemy, and was pretty much used as a shotgun at close range.

I just would prevent Thu'um from being used in general. No one should have it.

This may have been a viable opinion once, but as of 11/11/2011, a a blanket ban on Thu'um in the Roleplaying Forum would be unacceptable.

Otherwise, we'd be making Ulfric Stormcloak too unique around here.

Like any good DM should, I believe you should watch those character submissions with descretion. sure the Shout can seem like an "uber tool" but don't forget the people that tend to rig their own actions in ways that blatantly breaks character. People like that are more damaging to the RP experience than a powerful ability.

Also, when going to High Hrothgar and learning the abilities the Greybeards teach to the Dragonborn, I had the impression that the Shout took a great amount of stamina when used multiple times.

:cryvaultboy:



Hardly, Thu'um is much rarer and is apparently much harder to master.



I disagree, it looks like Thu'um is much more versatile. For instance, in magic there are many different schools which break it up and balance it to some extent. However, with Thu'um you can summon creatures to your aid, breath fire and even "become etheral" just so long as you've got the basics of Thu'um down. Which makes Thu'um much more powerful and varied than any school of magic.

So how are we going to RP this "Pool", it's simple to say, "I cast a fireball and my magicka is drained." how are we to RP not being able to shout?

Also, outside of combat, Thu'um can be very useful. I've found a Thu'um which makes my voice come from somewhere else, allowing me to successfully navigate through dungeons and stuff by making my opponents think i'm somewhere else.



What do you mean by manliness? Do you mean confidence? Aggression? And who's to say you can't just shout at a wall? You say they have to be experienced in battle, but I call [censored]. Those greybeards don't exactly look like warriors of years past. They look like monks who study and practice amongst each other or in solitude. Thu'um isn't strictly a combat mechanic. It has lots of other uses outside of combat which make the idea of "Practice only nessecary in battle" invalid.



My point here is that there's no way to control a characters use of Thu'um, i'm all fine for someone using it as long as there's a method to using it. Like exhaustion with melee and magic there's no mechanic for a player to balance their Thu'um use from.


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@Woolymammoth - We can't fullwell just tell people they can never RP as a Thu'um user. It's taking out one of the newest additions to the ES games which is extremely interesting to use and I can imagine could be good fun to RP.

@Kage - So you're suggesting that Thu'um takes a lot out of a character? So instead of just a pure shout, we're thinking it also takes physical energy to perform?

I think it takes away your breath, leaving you breathless during a combats situation, thus making it harder to fight.

I don't think that's a thing, but it's an interesting concept. I mean in the game using Thu'um doesn't actually take up your stamina but if you wanted to limit the "overpowered" power a bit you could introduce that concept. Like have physical repercussions for your character after shouting or something.

I doubt that would be necessary though, I really don't see a problem with using Thu'um in roleplaying. I mean it would be abused by the same jerks who abuse every other power anyway and ruin the fun for everyone. Not really any significant difference.

The problem with it is there's no community accepted standard. Everyone could have a different interpretation of how they'd want to use it. I'm just trying to figure out what's the best one to use in any of my RPs.

It's rare that I write posts like this, feel free to pick it apart.

I think the current obsession with Thu'um will die away once people have got over the hype and the Thu'um related characters will die away. Going off pre-Skyrim lore (I haven't actually got Skyrim yet ) I'd say that those who can use Thu'um should be few and far between.

Any character who uses it should definitely have a history of using it. The Lusty Argonian Historical Society (obscure lore, I know) gives a nice description of Thu'um and its users. Perhaps more importantly it suggests how those that know it learnt how to use it.


The next section describes that the members ask about how a non-Nord would learn how to use Thu'um and if there was any physical restrictions. The response is interesting to me because it suggests something important.


So essentially Thu'um is learnt by being apprenticed to one of the Tongues. This alone should put it beyond the reach of your average hack and slash adventurer. The piece also suggests that the ability to use The Voice runs in families. (The Nord being questioned learnt how to use it from her father.) There is also the suggestion that Thu'um is a specialised branch of magic, this could essentially have some interesting uses for powerful mages who've spent some time in Skyrim.

Thu'um could also be considered a curse for some. From The Five Songs of King Wulfharth.

Perhaps this goes further than just 'Verbally swearing'? Once a character becomes very adept in Thu'um even shouting normally should become dangerous. At power levels beyond that speaking itself becomes dangerous, remember when the Greybeards spoke to Talos and the surrounding villages fled?

One thing that I feel should be remembered is the ability to 'Swallow' shouts. It would be difficult to include but it would balance battles between Thu'um users and perhaps Thu'um users and mages.

Also where does the energy for Thu'um come from? If it's accepted that The Voice is a form of magicka then surely it comes from the same source as casting a spell would? If it isn't magicka then it must be something more internal from an Rp perspective using Thu'um should have an effect on the users stamina.

Well, I'd say that there would really be only two types of thu'um users: masters (greybeards) and newbies. you have to consider that the graybeards are a bunch of old dudes who live on a secluded mountain, and thus probably aren't very physical strong, in addition to them being so powerful that one word could level a building. Both of those are weaknesses.

Meanwhile, the new users would probably be worn out from even the smallest shout, because their vocal cords probably wouldn't be used to the strain of shouting. Also, since thu'um involves becoming fluent in a completely alien language, I'd imagine that it'd be very easy to mispronounce a word and wind up causing a completely different effect than the one intended. Adding to that, the graybeards stated that, for a non-Dragonborn, it takes an extremely long time to fully learn even one shout, so a new thu'um user would have a very limited range of shouts at his or her disposal.

Nope. Each word of Thu'um is almost as hard as the first to learn. As a mage masters a school of magic, further advancement in that school comes swiftly. The same can't be said for Thu'um.


It's on a timer. It doesn't drain any immediately recognizable resource, but then again, nor does magika: Being low on magic doesn't make you stupid/tired/etc. It just means you can't cast spells. Thu'um on recharge likely feels like a wane in mental power, rising to a cascade of power when it's ready again.

Useful, yes, and even At-will. Then again, it's possible to speak at will, or use a sword at-will. It's an innate ability. I don't think the light mana drain of low-level spellcasting ever gets recorded in RP either.

The greybeards also complain about how hard it is for them to learn Thu'um. I don't see Ulfric Stormcloak as a scholarly type.



You don't need to control them.



I think we should treat the new Currents of Time RP as a Thu'um test-drive All it is is a new type of magic. We'll work out the details on how it works - there's nothing to worry about.

We'll always have our Uber Ninjamages. Thu'um won't make them any more OP than they already are.

Where is this stated? I know we only learn one word at a time but where is it stated that each word is as hard as the first? Also, while you may be learning different Thu'ums, you are essentially learning an alphabet, one which if you combine certain unique letters together with enough force, create the Thu'um. So why would it be harder to master other words? Surely it would follow the same methods as the first word learnt? You seem so sure and yet there's no real evidence, unless of course you do have evidence.



Okay, so Thu'um obviously has mechanics similar to Magicka use. You mention a wane in mental power rising to a surge of power when you're able to cast this Thu'um. Does this mean someone who has knowledge of dragon language is constantly in this state of awareness? It seems a little unrealistic to me, others have stated that it could be more of a physical effect. By casting a Thu'um, you become winded or exert a large amount of physical energy which would leave you too tired to cast another. This seems much more balanced and realistic than just an innate timer.



You are correct, however - It was stated that it was probable he learnt Thu'um from his father or other ancestors. And we come back to the idea that Thu'um is incredibly difficult to learn, so much so that even Greybeards who spend their entire life trying to master it - Rarely do.



Not in a possessive, everyone is under my will way. But in the sense that to create immersion and realism, there needs to be boundaries. This thread is about understanding what those boundaries are.

The limitations are simple, learning it is difficult yes but finding the words and such would be even harder. Unless someone purposely goes down into old Nordic burial sites and fight through hordes of Draugar and then mystically finds a dragon wall and learns a word from it. Then there comes the need for them to be actually able to say the word properly and learning it could take days/weeks/months. Just like spells, enchanting, conjuration and such.

As for people using it I reckon it would be best to remember that in towns and cities shouting can and will scare people and the guards may come and grab you for whatever property damage you may have caused so there could be legal repercussions from it. Then it comes down to common sense use, if someone starts using it as their 'I Win' Button in every fight or using it allot it would come down to the GM asking them to slow down or cut back on its use or add some kind of repercussion in the rp itself.

I think it just comes down to how each individual GM wants to work it within the individual RP. If the character does have the ability to use a Thu'um make sure they add it in their background how and where they learned it and why and try and make sure its a good reason as to how it was acquired just like what we'd do with artifacts and ebony armour and the like.

Is a mage unaware of his own reserves of Magicka? It's not like spellcasting does anything stupid like "clouds the mind" or otherwise impairs mental capability.

I figure when you're incapable of using Thu'um, it leaves a special "hoarse" feeling in the throat, although not one that interferes with normal speech. The only physical "symptom" of Thu'um use is this hoarseness: it doesn't wind you or anything stupid like that, and you can still breath/speak normally, but attempts to use Thu'um again merely cause you to gag.

The dragon language is a powerful one, not meant to be spoken by mortals.

It's only going to be a problem if everyone in every RP wants to be a Dovahkiin.

Three main things can balance out Shout users:

1. Skill and Know-how (Even a Dovahkiin can't do much shouting without both learning the words AND absorbing the required number of dragon souls to use it, and that requires actually having killed at least one dragon.) While presumably the non-Dovahkiins can Shout without absorbing souls, they must sacrifice years of their lives training it like any skill, developing their vocal cords. And of course learning the proper words.

2. Mispronounciation - Draconic is a language spoken by a creature with an entirely different vocal physiology, so it's reasonable to say that Shouting, while potentially more powerful than Magicka, is also inherently more unstable. A mis-spoken syllable, or even an awkwardly-placed emphasis, might change the entire meaning, or at the very least throw off the aim. At worst, it might even cause damage to the voice/throat.

3. A Silence Spell.

You guys are missing the lore point from thu'um, before the Skyrim game.

Morihaus was one of the first figures to learn thu'um. I'd have to do more refreshing research (which I will get to tomorrow and report back to you guys), but I am sure of one thing: It is not something that was widely used. I am sure there has never been a non-Nord user who could use it, just like the Redguards and the shehai, and even the thu'um inside Skyrim was limited to the Greybeards. It is something that does not take months, but years to learn. This is no regular magick thing that everyone can freely learn.

Right... It's restricted to a few non-greybeards per generation. So, Thu'um should only come up in RPs with an epic scope, either World Politics, or Save-the-World heroics.

And I figure that Dragon-shouting's drawback is that it feels like it's tearing your throat out when you do it, inflicting temporary laryngitis.

From what I understood, many of the greybeards in lore could not speak because of the danger of saying anything. You try to talk to your grandpa, next thing you know he's flying like a category 5 hurricane.

If you really want to know how often a real person could viably dragon shout, I'll record what happens next time I leave the dishes undone, my girlfriend could dragonshout me trough a wall

For the purposes of RPing, I think that Thu'um should be treated much like we treat Vampires/Weres -- aslong as there is a viable and believable reason that the character has learned and trained in this ability then fine, its the same as people who can RP "Control of were forms", when people RP Vampires and weres they often rein themselves in and even give their characters all manner of disadvantages to balance out the playing field. I do any ways.

one curiosity I have is, as a person who hasn't played Skyrim or even read much about it simply to avoid spoilers, how does a characters voice relate to Dragon shouting, do they need to be able to speak or is it simular to a silent spell cast or ability? In other words -- if you cant shout, can you cast? If there is a viable way to combat Thu'um by use of silencing magics etc then I don't see how it could be considered too "Uber", it has a pretty significant weakness if Silence spells/potions conteract its effect, the same way vampires can get ganked by fire/sunlight and silver which are plentiful commodities in Tamriel.

Shouts or not actually a spell, they don't count as such. I also haven't heard of any silence spells affecting it, but then again - In the game there's only around 10 people usingit. =/

Silence in lore doesn't effect spells, it just renders you unable to speak.

And if you can't speak you can't shout. In terms of Roleplaying I really do think this is the best avenue for dealing with dragonshouts. But that's my opinion.

Genius.