But thats akward, if you could Run as fast as possible and only jumping as low as a turtle, it could be like you were getting your head crash onto some invisible wall, it doesnt make sense!

Not that that would make sense in any way, but the whole system doesn't, so this wouldn't really make things worse...

Because they want to move away from that. Attributes are scary for the new crowd they are trying to draw in. "Oh, I have attributes and I have skills and they both have a number that goes higher. I have to level my skills to level up, which raises my attributes. This is so confusing."

Personally I don't care, skills can provide a good benchmark on how strong you are, which is pretty much exactly what attributes do anyway. There is no difference between saying. " I have 20 in one handed skills and can kill this Goblin in 2 hits" and "I have 50 in str and can kill this Goblin in 2 hits"

It will probably determined by the weight of the items you're carrying, or maybe by stamina.

The removal attributes is the only change that really, really bugs me.

That's the problem. Screw the new crowd, they dont matter if it means ruining the vets experience. Newbs should accept ES for what it is, not what it will be if Beth sells out.

Yes there is a difference, they are two different variables that make up your character. Not to mention all of the least talked about attributes.

this whole appealing to newbs is getting out of hand, if they cant handle simple numerical representations, maybe they should go back to COD.

You make it sound like the concept is "really hard to understand and so only hardcoe gamers like me should experience it!"

So many things wrong with this, where to start? First and foremost, designing video games is a business. Second of all, what's the harm in making attributes a background process when it's doing literally the exact same thing as it was before, but without redundancies and (like Morrowind and Oblivion) forcing skill grinding and min/maxing? I love PnP, I love old cRPGs like Daggerfall, but to think this system in any way is terrible is delusional.

To be on topic at any rate, run speed is dependent on what you're equipped with, and I imagine jump height will be similarly affected. I personally am glad to be done with the ridiculous jumping mechanic. It was too over the top in my opinion, and very abusable not only in practice but as a skill.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but Beth don't make their games for us (this Board). They put in action elements, like finishing moves, and remove stats to appeal to people out there that have never even heard the term RPG.

It annoys me too, but it's just something we're going to have to live with. :sadvaultboy:

EDIT: Why does everyone here hate Call of Duty so much? I really enjoyed the fourth one.

I dont think you can certify the veracity of your claim - but I will be [censored] salty if this is true :shakehead:

How will we jump higher? With a jump spell of course, which will fit very nicely with the return of slowfall. Just a hint. Oh, go on.

Hopefully something can affect sprint, for example if you can run for 5 seconds with a speed of 2x, by the time you max it out you can run for 15 seconds with a speed of 3 or something like that ya dig?

My best guess is that stamina will affect it.

We all dpnt know, but i tihnk that it will be like Fallout 3/New vegas ie Run speed and jump height is locked.

This isnt a bad thing, running at 50mph and jumping 70 ft in the air was plain ridiculous (ok, it was fun as well).

Furthermore, as was stated elsewhere, many PnP and cRPG's have moved away from the heavy reliance upon stats... due to the fact that they contribute next to -nothing- to the development of a character. They're just one more piece of background information required to keep in mind while you're playing the game. Yes, we all get that you get stronger over time... or that your run speed improves dependent upon this or that stat... but the stats themselves take the player -out- of the experience.

I love the stats. I love all that old-school RPG goodness...

... but the fact is that they're trying to move away from that. The technology and capacity of games to provide skills and abilities representative of those in the real world (or the world of the given game's universe) has increased to the point where stats as a whole could be seen as redundant. Especially when playing in a first person context, where player skill plays an almost indistinguishable role from character skill.

I would be interested in seeing an RPG without player-determined character stats at all.

I would love to see a game in which the weapons had hard stats... and the characters had skills and attributes which defined their abilities and powers... and then leave the development of those skills and attributes to -me-. Let the improvement of my character be dependent upon the improvement of MY ability as a player. Leave the stats in the background. I'll level up my skills, choose an attribute or two to improve in order to better the stats I need, and spend time customizing my CHARACTER instead of focusing on numbers and formulas and what-have-you that the game could all do automatically.

So long as it's intuitive... and gives me the means to play the character I want... I don't need STATS at all to play an RPG.

I just don't know how intuitive it will be. That's what worries me the most.

"How will we jump higher?"

I hear of this really good technique what you do is bend you legs and lift up off the ground

Anyway I is very sad about the matter of no acrobat skill

I've seen it in interviews. Unless I'm mistaken and he means ONLY at start for all the races.

But he was talking about archery at the time, so I'm pretty sure jump height is locked. I know he said at least that they're the same across the board for all races.

I don't know who you are, but that is one of the first sensible posts concerning Skyrim's system I've seen in at least a month. Amusingly enough, one of my friends who finished a full Game Development course is already looking at making an RPG without the archaic concepts of old while maintaining a strategically interesting game. You are a gentleman and a scholar, and I would buy you a beer.

No, Im saying that its way too easy to understand. If OB was too complicated for some, then RPGs obviously are not for them. Like we really need to dumb down the last of a dying genre. I dont see linear, mindless action games trying to appeal to us, why should we appeal to them? Beth would still make plenty of money making this a deep, complex game. hopfully Newbs buy this game and say "This is Fallout with swords". That will show them what appealing to newbs gets you. Unfortunately Skyrim will sell more copies than any ES game regardless of what they give us. I call it the Mass Effect 2 effect.

You think it's dying?

I think the RPG is just now reaching it's prime. Prior to Oblivion, I know of people who couldn't have come up with a coherent character profile to save their lives. You could have put a gun to their head and demanded they design a fantasy character with a background and storyline, or you were going to splatter their brains all over the wall, and they'd be dead.

They're far more enlightened individuals now, I can assure you. Several of them actually took that experience and got involved in other roleplaying games.

There's a fear, among old-schoolers like myself. We seem to think that if they change our games... if they let just 'anyone' in... we're all going to get a diluted product.


But the fault is our own.

We've spent so much time making our games inaccessible to outsiders, looking down on folks who just don't 'get it'... that we HAVE to dumb down the systems. We HAVE to make games that are accessible to them, because there's no WAY anyone can go from NOT playing RPGs to learning how to properly roll a DnD character, or how to get into The Elder Scrolls: Arena.

It's a flaw of our own design. We made our games for people like us... and now we demand they stay that way... even as the people like us grow fewer and farther between.

It's an unsustainable dynamic. At some point, games are going to have to change... and I think the way Skyrim approaches it is -far- superior to how Oblivion did. They're learning ways to make the game approachable for an outsider, while having the kinds of options for customization that an old-school player like me can appreciate.

If you want to hold a grudge, go right ahead... but me? I'll just be enjoying the awesome game that I'm sure Skyrim is going to be.

I know its dying. When people think that a bunch of pointless left right dialogue choices is an RPG, much less the greatest RPG of all time, the genre is in serious peril. I call it PC (politically correct) game marketing. Games don’t have to appeal to everybody. The funny thing is, is action gamers don’t care about RPGs/Skyrim and Beth doesn’t really care about them either, they just want their money. I’ve never heard a gamer say "I really want to play RPGs but I just don’t get them". They say" Yeah, that [censored] was boring, too much talking, I want headshotz!". We are certainly not in some sort of RPG golden age, that was the 80s and 90s.

We will not.
The world will lazily be designed around obstacles we cannot jump, to create an illusion of size.

This is what I fear.
Its like a 1985 NES game all over again, but with better graphics.
No wait, that is bioware. (Im talking level design here)

Skyrim must not fall for this sort of easy way out nonsense. That is a dealbreaker.

In otherwords. "I like complex things because they make me look smart." Being complex for the sake of being complex is not good design, it's being pompous. It's the same as if I was playing Minecraft and used a mod to make redstone circuits take up only one space instead of having to make a huge complex board and someone comes up to me and says "Why did you do that, you ruined the game. Stop dumbing down Minecraft, don't you love making a needlessly complex redstone circuit to be able to make a lock mechanism for your house that needlessly bloats the entire structure?"

Sorry I saw something that could be simplified to be enjoyable and ruined your complex experience. I will leave you with your RPGs of old.

You must have never played previous ES games, since they werent complex for complexity sake, nor were they pompous. This is just another fallacy spouted around here. People that dont even know what they are talking about. Removing variables is not a good thing. only Newbs that dont care about the game in the first place would think so. If newbs couldn't understand RPGs, then thats their bad. Every game isn't for everybody, nor should they be. I dont like COD, but it shouldnt turn into an RPG just for me.

"Dealbreaker" as in you're waiting to know 100% if jump height is fixed and if it is you won't play Skyrim?

Im quite sorry but you seem to imply that intelligence is somehow wrong.
Im afraid its a sort of ww2 meme left over.

In actual fact, intelligence is to be preferred over the alternatives and there is nothing inherently wrong with aiming a game at people that can count.

He was talking about your stance on RPGs, not RPGs themselves. Again though, it's not REMOVING a variable, it's just changing the implementation. It's taking something archaic and giving it polish and a new feel, without stripping the inherent purpose behind the system.