Please, oh please dont use bro or similar with me. And as for the answer look at the lower quote.
Thank you for saving me the trouble to explain my point!
Edit: Only they act more subtly than just fighting everyone openly.

I like the way Obsidian did them. They are real people just trying to live their lives. We also have to understand that they are trying to hide from the NCR. They can't just go around saying "Heil Enclave!" and blast wastelanders with plasma weapons. It kinda draws attention. Most of them try to say they didn't know whats going on, because they don't want to be found out. They don't want to risk you rating them out.

I seriously dont think they are gonna start becoming terrorist. People that call themselves the government? DUDE they may get crazy and kill everyone but terrorist aint them. They are people trying to rule out the wastelanders and wipe the state clean or something like that. The best way to do that aint terror.

And i wouldnt be worried about NCR. Unless they got a nuclear shield

How is the prospect of the Enclave remnants trying to fight people so difficult to grasp. God's sake call them something else other than terrorists if it's troubling you so damn much. The Enclave now pretty much lacks both the facility and numbers to survive on their own - unless Beth-hacks get their way of course, in which case it won't matter - so I don't know where they are going to pull the scientific resources from to produce a killer pathogen; you know when a civilisation get pushed to the brink of extinction and are stripped of most of their resources they are sometimes forced to switch their paradigm to something more acheivable.

What u seriously expecting them to start running around exploding things? I think they will be pushed for one last stand in Chicago, but i seriously aint buying that terrorist theory. I seriously hope they will be joinable, and that (west) BoS will be there to fight them there, along with super mutants and NCR officials, Legion forces and hopefully (in my dreams) a independent Vegas army. Would be fun that way.

Because that's all terrorists do right? Blowing things up is the only thing that strikes terror in people? And yeah given that Broken Steel revolved around the Enclave having an orbital missile platform I do expect them to explode things.

Lol at the last two quotes being together

It's very rare, but satisfying, when somebody set-ups themselves

Yeah I know

I'm not all knowing about the Enclave but I know that'll never get to be one of them, maybe an errand boy but never an official part of them.

Whhhhhhhhat?

This is one of the things I stated repeatedly and you debated me on at every turn, that the Enclave had secrets, and not all members of Enclave knew what was going on.

Which I firmly believe.

Also a couple things about Richardson's speech:

He does not say they are killing everyone, or that they are killing those who are not mutants, like vault dwellers.

Compare say the dropping of the atomic bombs to conclude WWII to Richardson's plan.

American citizens had no clue. Majority of the military had no clue. Very few knew what was going to happen.

Enclave leadership, inner circle, whatever you want to call them, would be the same way.


Debating Enclave is about pointless because people do not want to use any common sense and throw the most important factors of Nuclear War out the window, the most important being: SURVIVAL. I don't care if you are Enclave, NCR, BoS, or survivalist Joe, people want to live and groups want to survive, and will do whatever it takes to do so.

With that said, I do not want the Enclave to be the "enemy", and they do not have to be. I also think they should be way different than fo2 and 3.

u talking about joinable?

I think the enclave should be handled, schematic wise, same way all factions in fonv are. That they are not kos, unless your actions make them kos, and you gain rep, and that could lead to some form of "joining".

You can search my posts to find my beliefs on the enclave.

One arguement I do not like is "enclave played out". As the main enemy, yes. Which is why they need a fresh new look. They have been in two games as main enemy, one as remnants. Likewise, BoS in 4, NCR in 3, Mutants in 4, Vault dwellers, raiders... it is a game. More Enclave yes, but not as the enemy, unless your character makes them so.

Enclave are at their last stand, so making them a faction you HAVE to kill would actually kill them, COMPLETELY. so making them joinable is... pretty smart for Beth.

Then they wouldn't be the Enclave, they'd have to change and become another pointless faction. It's not smart, it's lore breaking.

1. Fellow Americans, I have been honored to be the steward that will take the American people back to the mainland to reclaim the United States for its own citizens. We will be the first generation free of the mutant threat in over one hundred years.

It's been a long wait, and the work that has made this possible has been difficult. At times it seemed impossible, however through the brave and tireless efforts of our own head of the Chemical Corps, Dr. Charles Curling, the hour of our salvation is now at hand.

So the people of the Enclave will blindly accept that the Project - whatever it is will save them?

The Project is proceeding well.
The Project is our salvation.
- Enclave Citizen

But if they were told, oh God no, they'd rebel, revolt even? Given that the speech isn't finished and is found in a note on his person it's pretty obvious that it hasn't been made, why would he need to go into the specifics of the Project immediately before it's deployment, especailly as the citizenry is apparently kept informed of it's progress (see the first quote). So he doesn't tell them, just that the Project is going to reclaim the American mainland and free them of the mutant threat; so when they go to the mainland and see that everyone is dead what then? What is the point of keeping it from the public? Not only is it Richardson's rallying call nobody would care. The Enclave soldiers shoot wastelanders for kicks but, oh no, killing everyone whom they believe: "You! It's your kind that destroyed this once mighty nation. You're gonna pay!" That's really going to cross some moral boundries?

The people on the Oil Rig have no morality, how can they, they've never been to the mainland, seen it or it's inhabitants; all they know comes from the leadership, who are they to think that killing everyone is a bad idea?

2. That was because of the threat of spies, not because there'd be some huge out-cry among the American people that the U.S. was going to drop a bomb on the Japanse - and save their own soldiers lives from an actual mainland invasion.

3. No they wouldn't, as said before, what would be the point?

Its an army. Army without soldiers doesnt work out, and as we clearly see they do not have many soldiers left, so either they die or they begin recruiting, they dont have any other choices.

or they do what is most like and the best option - They integrate into other factions.

Are you seriously going to bring up that debate again? That the Enclave are all over the damn planet that there are Enclave bases in every state and over ever hill that the planet and America are infested with them.

If you want to believe that there is another group out there calling themselves Enclave but haven't spoken to the Enclave that we know, for 200 plus years, fine believe that. Doesn't make sense and they wouldn't be the same Enclave that we have dealt with in Fallout 2 and Fallout 3.

There is no evidance what so ever to support it. I was only talking about the FEV plan, and The Enclave pointed out that Richardson did tell his people about it. So I was wrong anyways about the leadership not telling their people about the FEV plan.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1357984-how-would-you-like-the-enclave-to-go-out/page__view__findpost__p__20493625

Yeah but that means the Enclave are dead. I dont think anyone really wants them dead.

Alot of people including myself want them [censored] dead. All the Enclave supporters that dwell on this forum want the Enclave dead. They are as good as dead. There is no logical canonical reason for them to comeback.

Only as remnants doing their own thing in the background or as remnants joining another faction, thats about it.

You want them to recruit outsiders, mutants and non-pure humans....

Enclave - "A portion of territory within or surrounded by a larger territory whose inhabitants are culturally or ethnically distinct."

If they began recruiting outsiders they'd no longer be an enclave so they'd have killed their heritage, and need to change their name.

Yer leaving the notes out of that speech where he basically sounds like a politician, making fun of citizens.

You really simplify the impact of dropping nuclear weapons. Seeing how we still have anti-nuke rallies to this day...

Hitler made a lot of speeches, did he ever make one where he laid out his plan of murdering innocents? No.

See, I am of the train of thought that the Enclave on the rig did not sit around and do nothing for 150 years. They would have established mainland foothold asap. They would have increased their population asap. There are going to be many ideas and debates among enclave circa 2077 about what to do to survive. And sitting and doing nothing for 150 years is the least productive for survival. Especially seeing how every other survivor is doing something.

Military types are going to want aggressive reproduction, for more troops. Now if you don't make them happy, well, what you think they would do? Some guy in a suit, post apocalyptic, survival of fittest going to tell them what to do? No. They will kill that guy and put someone in a suit who more sympathetic to their agenda.

They are not going to sit around. And fact is we have no idea what they did for 150 years.

As far as any evidence, the games have only been in 2 locations. All we know is what went down there.

You always twist my arguement around. I don't say enclave in every state, or a billion bases equipped with massive enclave army.

I state basic common sense, that it is highly likely there were other Enclave not on rig, that those enclave would do whatever it took for survival, and yes, they would be different from those on the rig, but still connected to the pre-war Enclave.

I also believe the Enclave did not sit on the rig doing nothing for 150 years, and that they would have established mainland operations asap, ie as soon as it was safe to do so, so about 10 years after.

That's because they bare no relevance, in-fact one of his personal notes is that he will continue to explain the Project.


As someone persueing employment from the UK's Atomic Weapons Establishment I am aware of this. It is also irrelevant given that the U.S. popualce - whom never even had something like the Blitz of the UK to show them the horrors of war - would have no concept of just how big a mile wide explosion was. It was the 40's not the 70's, as far as the populace was concerned the war was the newsreels. And the population of the world hasn't been living in a sealed propaganda machine for the last century.


Your dodging the point, par for the course when dealing with you of course. The real life speeches of Adolf Hitler bare no relevance, partly because the holocaust was largely kept secret for one thing and was something that could be covered up. Whent the Enclave populace go to the mainland and see the bodies of millions of people and post-war settlements what then? What's the Enclave's move then?


What the [censored] are you talking about? You're train of thought it tailored to suit your needs in-lue of actual canon. So in-fact what you are suggesting is that the military controlled the Enclave? I guess that's why there ultimate plan was to release a killer pathogen, of course it all makes sense now. It's an insane notion anyway given that the Enclave have never engaged in open warfare with any of the immediate mainlander threats around them. Frankly given that Richardson also notes to plug himself for re-election I would hyposit that he isn't a puppet of the military.

I find it ammusing that you believe the knowledge of the Project would give way to some kind of open rebellion yet, "increase the population?" how? Are they going to institute policy enforcing mandatory child-birth, guess the upper-class women of 2077 would just love that idea wouldn't they. We know what the Enclave did to increase it's numbers, they re-grouped with everyone available for communication via the Raven Rock network, the Contuity of Government network, because you see that's what governments do when [censored] hits the fan. They have these things planned out years, decades, hell Raven Rock was built in the 1960's; they don't build the Oil Rig and then figure out what to do when the bombs have dropped.

The fact is right, we don't. However you are most probably wrong, you're using very poor logic indeed in a desperate attempt to justify there being more Enclave in the world; so the Enclave set-up colonies far, far away from the Oil Rig huh? Because that's the logical thing to do for survival after the war, split up right. We know that Navarro was a new base.

And frankly no, I don't believe that after the war, the Joint Chiefs of Staff would murder the President because they want more troops. I think that the President would want more troops to in any event as they will be the ones attempting to impose order on the destroyed United States.

It shows him to be the stereotypical politician. Which means full of feces.


No, not irrelevant. Facts were not told because of the utter devastation that nuclear weapons caused. Yes, it was top secret, but they used propaganda and censorship to keep facts from the people, just like the Enclave would do in regards to FEV. The US did it, Germany did it, and the Enclave would do it.
Bodies of millions? Not in the immediate area they would occupy. Bodies decompose. Fire. Would not be hard to cover up certain areas, then while clean up continues, people are contained and told where they can go with whatever reason the leaders choose to say. Not that hard.


First off, I said if decisions were made counter productive to survival. Second, the FEV was NOT the Enclave master plan. The Enclave found the FEV a few years before FO2. So, what was the Enclave plan for the other 150 some years? According to you, sit and do nothing. That is not what I believe. I'm not saying that in 2087 Enclave would make 1000 bases or travel to Nebraska, I am saying they would gain a foothold on the mainland and begin expansion and keep logistical support.


1000 people is nothing, and not "expansion". CoG spreads people out. There are almost 100 cog facilities in the DC area alone. We don't know how extensive it is, because it is top secret. Even if a decent amount of enclave managed to make it to rig, which is questionable, they then sit around and do nothing and hope for a miracle, ie finding the FEV 100 years later? Right.


Yup, pre-war you would spread out to increase chance of survival. After bombs drop, you do whatever it takes to survive.

If some had the means to make it to rig, they prolly would. But to believe all could make it to rig is foolish.

Again, these people, the leaders of Enclave after the bombs dropped will have different opinions on what to do. If a leader had a bonehead idea of "do nothing", then yes, he would be persuaded otherwise or eliminated. What they did, who knows, but I have no doubts it was something.