i think the enclave should come back and you should be able to help them win something becuase personally i believe that they are way better than any other faction in the fallout universe

Btw, how exactly would Enclave get more troops if they stuck on a rig that has to maintain a population of no more than 1000 due to space? You did say "president would want more troops".

The only way to logistically support more troops, is to gain a foothold on the mainland.

Which I agree with, they would want more troops, I just don't think they would sit around for a 150 years before deciding to do something about it.

So he was just making the speech to pass the time? What-ever.

Believe what-ever [censored] you want, you usually do. There's no reason for the Enclave to do it and you've failed to provide me with an adequate reason, just meaningless comparisons based on rather superficial similarities, the Atom-Bomb and Curling-13 are both powerful weapons so they are the same appears to be your mantra.


So who does the clearing up, the Enclave inner-circle (btw the way, they're called the United States Cabinet). So it's not hard for the leaders to cover-up the death of the entire population of the world, but making them believe that it was right - you know, like they already have done, is just ridiculous apparently? The post-war settlements like Shady Sands, Vault-City... why am I even arguing this with you? It's dumb. You've just said that it would be easy to cover-up the death of the entire population of the Earth.


I'm not saying that was their plan, I'm saying that's what they did. We know from Fallout 3 that the mainland recovery effort failed in every respect, the National Guard deserted or were killed and the refugee stations were stretched beyond capacity and everyone died of radiation, and that was only in a small place like Germantown. That was the Government's plan, in-fact problably most government's plans to maintain order. I don't know what you are saying? That mainland outposts were established? If that's the case why are they never mentioned? Why is Navarro - apparently vital to allow Vertibird refueling for broader mainland operations - described by mutliple people as a new installation? What you are saying never happened, or at any rate was no longer happening by 2242 so I fail to see your point. Again, we know that there was an official effort to maintain order, it failed.


For one they found the Mariposa base in 2170's. And of those thousands of CoG facilities how many have the resources to maintain a sustainable population for centuries, not many I'd imagine; I assumed that's what you want like last-time another source of Enclave in the world. Again, Eden makes it clear that decades after the war someone was giving orders, orders for a mass retreat. I don't know why they waited so long, don't really care, point is that they did because there is nothing in the State of California to suggest that any mainland logistical operations were performed.


So again, your saying that some openly defied orders, effectively commited high treason, and continued to hide in some remote bunker? What does that accomplish for you exactly? In any event most would at least try to make it too the Rig.


No he wouldn't, you can't just bump-off the President of the United States; he's the one with the authority to actual do things. Say President Obama hadn't authorised the mission to kill Osama Bin Laden, do you think that General Dempsey would just siddle into the Oval Office and threaten him to do so?

You can't just shoot him in the post-war President in the Oil Rig's War Room and dump his body over-board; people would notice, people whom in the 2070's/80's weren't the slavish decendants of these people.


Of course the President would want more troops to accomplish his actions, given that we know the recovery plan was a spectacular failure and was abandonned - and the entire U.S. became lawless - it's unlikely that he'd go into the remains of San Francisco and set-up a recruitment station. Don't try and turn your own arguements on me pal, it was you who said that the U.S. Military would stage a coup against the civilian government if the then President dared to not want a larger army; I simply said that of-course he would like a larger army, beause why wouldn't he

Fine kill the Enclave, guess ill just loot the Legion for spoils of war then.
Phuff, profligates. LOLOLOLOLOL

Seriously is there anything else you like about Fallout? Seems like you only pop up to start the same old crap over and over again. This same tired debate were its the forum vs you. Neither side is going to back down so why don't we just end it here. Do we really need to derail every topic about the Enclave with your opinion that it was stupid that the Enclave leadership was entirely on the Rig.

I get you think its possible there is another Enclave out there that has had nothing to do with the Enclave we know about.

For the millionth time, Fallout 2, Fallout 3 and New Vegas makes it clear that the Enclave are wiped out that the leadership was only on the Rig and the only mainland base was Navarro. They didn't go to DC till after the events of Fallout 2. Chicago was most likely built on the way to DC.

But if you want to believe a splinter group of the Enclave before the great war went off and did their own thing. Fine I am not going to argue that, yet there is no proof of that, but your speculation. They wouldn't be the same Enclave that we already, know. Their history for the last 200 years would be radically different than the Enclave we already know.

But seriously do we need to drag this out yet again? Do we need to derail yet another thread that is Enclave related? Is there anything else you like about Fallout or have opinions on besides this one thing?

People generally do not go out of their way to commit suicide. They will do what it takes to live, not travel a wasteland full if danger on a hope and a prayer.

Geee reasons to keep mass murder of the entire world a secret, including survivors in the USA. Ya... why keep it secret.... lmao. They lie about deaths from APA, but tell the truth about FEV. Lmao.

Post nuclear war world is way different than today. If you don't think another leader would eliminate a leader who he felt was detrimental to survival, you are naive.

Seems to me you also confusing the enclave as the entire US Govt, when it is not. It a shadow govt that basically did self proclaim themselves to be the govt after everything was destroyed. There were obviously a lot if plans put into action. We do not know what all worked and didn't because the game world compared to the size of the USA is tiny.

And lol...I didn't say recruit survivors. You breed to increase numbers, and the only way you do that, is to expand.

By saying they found Mariposa in the 2170s, a 100 years after the war means nothing, excepr that maybe I'm correct and the Enclave was conducting ops on the mainland, because they didn't find the FEV until about 5-10 years prior to FO2.

Your guys theory is: bombs drop 2077. Sit on rig playing checkers. Finally decide better do something. Luckily find FEV.

Ridiculous. Seeing how everyone on mainland would be reproducing and gaining strength, it is counterproductive to sit and do nothing, as you are screwing yourself for the "take-over" and reclaiming of the mainland.

Once again it is your opinion Evilbastrd. All you have is your opinion and your speculations. While we have three games and their game guides worth of canon.

Again can we just drop this? Serioulsy annoying that you keep derailing anything Enclave.

Are you aware of what you are saying? They cover up the deaths with APA because it's bad for moral, because it's their own people getting killed. Given that the only connection between the Project and APA testing do you think that the Enclave keeps every single death they cause a secret? The people on the Oil Rig don't care, they support the Project and are kept informed of it's progress as we've discused, the Enclave troopers kill wastelanders for fun. Nobody in the Enclave gives a [censored], they believe what they are told and what they are told is that the mainland is evil and needs to die, you believe that the leadership can just tell them anything and get away with it anyway so why not this.


No I don't believe that a military officer would kill the President in a post-war situation. We aren't talking about leaders here, there is only one, the Commander-in-Chief, the President. You are talking about a military coup in the United States.


Your opinion, un-verified and ridiculous. Even by the Bible the President was on the Oil Rig, so yeah, the Enclave is the entire government; because anyone openly dis-obeying the President is effectively deserting. Hell the Bible says that the President and such were evacuated in March, so it's pretty likely that everyone got to their bunkers.



Your words pal not mine. So they breed to increase numbers... So what? Where are these mainland support stations.


Whatever pal, your theory doesn't exist. All you've said is that they'd try to do this and try to do that when they either didn't or have stopped doing so; either way it's irrelevant. Yeah, of course they were doing some mainland ops before 2242... so what? They didn't "take-over" the mainland did they? They didn't establish settlement or help people did they? So, again, what are you suggesting that they did?

Some points you missed:

1. Navarro was established fairly recently as a re-fueling base to allow long-range mainland operations; why was this not done sooner if they already began operations earlier as you say.

2. Do you agree with me that covering-up the death of the population of the Earth isn't "easy", you haven't continued to defend that theory after-all so I guess I won that arguement. Geee..... covering-up the deaths of millions of people.... Ya.... should be easy..... lmao.

Really? And everytime someone posts about Enclave you are right there to claim they are dead and bash their opinions. So look in the mirror.

You speculate a lot yourself, and we have to speculate about the Enclave, because compared to many other groups in game, very little is known about them.

But if you know everything, what did Enclave do for 150 years?

The difference is I am not speculating. I am using clear canon evidence to support what I say. You on the other hand ignore everything and make up your own crap, you speculate and think your opinions are fact and canon.

We have gone over everyhing there is about the Enclave a million times. You ignore it all the time and then have the nerve to ask a a question like that. Serioulsy why even try you won't even listen to a word I say and then make up your own crap.

When I say the Enclave are all but wiped out. That is canon it is fact and has been proven.

All you have is "well I think its stupid that they were all on the rig and since its my option that makes it canon. And Styles and everyone else are morons because they can't see that my opions are fact!"

Seriously is there anything you like about Fallout besides this topic? I don't see you talk about anything else. You just come out from under your bridge to bring up the same old [censored] over and over again.


As for: The Enclave, Lt.Andronicus and other respected Enclave scholars. Can we just stop giving this issue the time of day? Have we not learned from the endless cicular arguments that just went on forever and ever.

Christ how many times does this argument need to be brought up?

Evilbastrd lacks evidence. He speculates.

We can't prove him wrong, but he most certainly can't prove himself right. End of story.

No really evilbastrd, how many times do you feel the need to fight with the same people over the exact same topic with the exact same arguments, only to end up at the exact same conclusion?

You know the old saying about madness.


Seems to me that you are under the impression that the Enclave is some ridiculous Illumanti conspiracy group when its not, and is in fact, the United States government.

I was having fun but given that you've just called me a "respected Enclave scholar" I think I'll take your side from now on

I'm going to start putting that beside anything I sign now in real life.

"Doctorate in Enclave studies."

Military ops generally are kept secret from the people, so I doubt the citizens on rig know about mowing down wastelanders.

Again, covering up mass murder would not be hard. Worldwide, who cares. Not like they gonna pop out if rig and start intercontinental travel. They keep areas on mainland quarantined until clean complete. The rig population is only 1000, not like they need a big area to live.

I would imagine Navarro as refueling wasn't needed until vertibirds ready. So as far as land ops pre-vert it would be done on foot.

Maybe some limited vert ops as they came into service.

As far as the bible and timeline go, it isn't just my opinion, but the opinion of the designers of FO2, that the Enclave is shadow government. If you want to bring in the bible, it has loads of evidence that the Enclave is a shadow govt, but I try to not do so as people get excited.

The President is not the government of the USA. Technically, Congress is just as, and debatable to be more, powerful than the president.

So what are you saying? They want more troops, realize the necessity of more troops, and do nothing? Basically these post war leaders are morons.

That is the big mystery. What did they do for 150 years?

I solved it, they sat around and ate donuts the whole time.

I have never said my speculation is canon. Ever. Yes, it is my opinion, and you sabotage it every chance you can, and you do the same to anyone else who mentions Enclave.

Instead of just enjoying the debate for what it is, hell, you even try censorship, don't talk about Enclave guys!!!

I ask a question, guess what, you can't answer it because nobody knows. Wow, such a wealth of knowledge on the canon of Enclave that we have a 150 year gap.

By your canon crutch that you cling to, I guess the only places where people survived the nuclear war are west coast and mojave, DC and Pitt, and Chicago and few other midwest locations. Because, no place else exists in game, it must be void of life and barren.

Stuff has and does go on outside of the game world, dude.

*frantically suffles through notes*

*looks up in disbelief*

*hand on forehead*

By God.....he's got it....

Wouldn't surprise me if that is what you believe. Or anyone else who believes in quality writing and story telling, and always expresses love for the great story telling of the original FO games. The great donut adventure, bravo.

It is obvious by the lack of donuts and lack of knowledge of donuts. It's the only way I see it.

Okay then. This has headed off-topic, seemingly due to the inability to allow people to voice their own opinion about the Enclave, whether they base it on in-game content, game world canon, or personal speculation. It can close for now, before someone ends up with a warning and posting ability suspension.