How do you feel about ghouls from outside vault 12? In the first game this was the origin point for the ghouls shown. However later games, including the most recent, New Vegas, have shown ghouls from other locations. How do you feel about ghouls from other locations?
>>Actually, a dip in FEV has a chance of modifying Intelligence, but it doesn't always increase it. Some people do gain increased intelligence, a larger majority lose intelligence and most people remain the same. It also depends if people have enough radiation damage to be turned into ghouls or super mutants.<<

If so, then people dipped in the Vats can become ghouls instead of supermutants, if they are radiated. I think that easily matches Harold's case...

Fallout 2:

{100}{}{You see a particularly leathery-looking Ghoul.} {101}{}{You see Harold.} {102}{}{You see a very old but still spry-looking ghoul.} {172}{}{Put a sock in it ya smelly old ghoul. Goodbye.}

Loxley (F1): {244}{LOX_69}{Harold? He's a good enough sort, for being a ghoul an all. Lives on the south side.}

As you can see, Harold is called a ghoul in the game.

Butch (F1): {233}{BUTCH46}{Alright, so it wasn't the Death Claw. But what would the mutants in Old Town want with our caravans? Unless it's some kind of conspiracy.}

As you can see, there are more muties in the Hub Old town, not only Harold (though we don't see them in the game). And they are all called both 'mutants' and 'ghouls'.

I think the point is that you call 'ghouls' only the ones that were exposed to 'wild' FEV in the air and radiation, and not the ones that were screwed-up results of dipping (like Harold and Talius). I think both kinds should be called 'ghouls', because, though they were created with different methods, the result is identical, and they were both result of radiation and FEV (ghouls of Necropolis are radiated people that were exposed to mutated FEV in the air, and Harold and Talius are result of dipping people with radiation damage - think this is what Chris Taylor meant).

All good points - Tim Cain and Chris Taylor agree with you, and they say Harold's a ghoul. To quote statements within the past week:

Chris Taylor: Ghouls are a type of mutant.

Harold is a ghoul. He's also a little special.

Super Mutants are humans with no or minimal radiation damage who have been exposed to FEV.

Ghouls are humans with significant radiation damage exposed to FEV.

Harold is, well, Harold.

Tim Cain: I know we treated him as a ghoul, but not a Necropolis one. He may have been irradiated before or after. All I remember was that he went in there with the guy whose name I forget (the one who fell into the vat and became the Master), and only Harold came out. Harold's memory is totally whacked, btw.

...most people don't know when they get irradiated, so he [Harold] just may not know what happened to him. I do know that radiation and FEV do not mix. Mutants are immune to radiation effects, but an irradiate human is killed by exposure to FEV. So one thing is sure: Harold is not a mix of radiation and FEV. He's got to be one or the other, and I think he's a ghoul.

According to Chris, ghouls are irradiated humans exposed to FEV.

According to Tim, ghouls are due solely to radiation.

Both agree Harold is special. And I don't mean handicapped.

Officially: Ghouls are a mix of FEV and radiation. Harold is a mutant who resembles a ghoul. Harold may have had some radiation damage before he was exposed to FEV, but his mutation (outside of his surface appearance) makes him different than a ghoul. Most ghouls are the result of extreme radiation + FEV exposure, but Harold's change was due primarily to FEV exposure (again, he could have svcked up a few rads in the wastes without him knowing, especially considering how long he ran caravans in the wastes).

He is hideously mutated enough so that he looks like a ghoul, but he's not technically one, and this is the mistake that Loxley makes (Loxley only judges a book by its cover, and he knows nothing about genetics or anything beyond a surface appearance).

You can call him a ghoul if you want, but the official answer is:

"Harold is Harold."

Yes, that's the logical conclusion. Widen the range inside which to look, and you'll likely find more of what you were looking for. However, my point still stands. Making ghouls too commonplace has (had) its costs. Rather than being feared and wearied by humans because of their freakish and generally alien (to common folk) nature, they are now loathed because they are (as a common sight to almost everyone) ugly and smell bad ("Oh, it's a ghoul, throw some rocks at it kids!") - treated more like black people in the late 19th to early 20th century America, or common bums, rather than relatively unknown freaks of evolution caused by the aftermath of the war. I wouldn't have gone that route, I would've wanted their appearances kept more frugal and more "mysterious" to the people at large.

Busts out his tinfoil hat and mirrored goggles and downs a nukacola.
Ill tells ya how ghouls are formed!
Long ago there was this crazy FEV that exploded into the air contaminating everything! Now how it effected critters and people...well it was different for each species. With scorpions and such...well those bastards just got bigger. Most people believe that the fev for humans basically allowed us to take a couple bullets to the head and still survive as a common occurence..

Well I say they only half right! Its my theory and its true muhaha thats the fev containmented everyone but became dormant. The dormant fev that has latched onto our DNA is in every wastelander whos been born in the wild or was still alive and in contact of the fev when it exploded. The fev treats humans as dangnabited almost makes us immortals& but the thing is is that to get the genes to activate, it needs radiation and alot of it to activate it. Now granted maybe not just radiation but havent seen anything this side of the moon that will do the job.
Well then u got the catch 22. The gene activates and u become damn near immortal but it needs radiation to activate but the amount screws up and Burman away the skin..

Vault 12 was probably the place where Ghouls were first seen, not the source.

Ok I finally found the source that says vault 12 is the source of ghouls.

As someone claimed before I was just quoting wiki, which wasn't the case at all I was using my memory of in game content. I just re did a playthrough of Fallout 2, and I took some screenshots myself of the sources, so here they are. (view them in order obviously)

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/48430460.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/78287137.jpg/

They are just snippets out of the information found on the computer in Vault 13. It talks about the experiments and real reason for the vaults and how the first 122 vaults were just experiments for eventual space travel and colonization of other planets. Vault 12's experiment was a door that didn't fully close, slowly letting in radiation. That vault later became known as Necropolis, where Set and his ghouls were the vault dwellers turned into ghouls.
It pretty much indicates radiation as the cause, but im also inclined to agree that general FEV in the air also contributed to it, which is why there are ghouls all over the place, like dean whos never leaved the sierra madre.

I took screenshots of the whole thing describing all the vaults, if anyone is interested.

If vault experiment was door not closing, it doesn't mean that is the source of all ghouls.

Just means the Vault wasn't supposed to close.

Radiation is....radiation.

But it isn't. I's not supposed to create ghouls every time someone gets exposed to it. This logical approach that what happens once should happen again, and be provable empirically, is the wrong vibe and approach for the setting we see in the game. The setting is one of fear and expectation; that war radiation could be feared to make people into ghoulish monsters is a feature of the setting, one that a writer could use for a FO story; not one that every writer must conform to and tolerate in their FO stories.

Understand that it's supposed to be akin to the same idea as a 50's freak accident story ~kind of like Spiderman^* getting powers from a radioactive spider ~~Not that every radioactive spider would give spider powers.

There are accounts [as well as http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/microwave.asp], of guys in the NAVY/WW2 used to stand in front of the RADAR dish on cold nights to keep warm (because it would "microwave" them ). This is something that could be used for a story in FO ~for another isolated weird event; but this should not be used again and again ~~None of these should be overused, or used with any pretext of understanding or explain it. That's not what it's for.

That is swell.

There is absolutely nothing from that computer that states every single ghoul is from V12. Just that the citizens from Necropolis are more than likely, from the Vault. It doesn't even say, with certainty, that ALL of those ghouls are from V12.

I have said this time and time again, that is a writing strategy. Especially in rpgs and fantasy books. It allows the writer to go back and expand, possibly in a completely different way.

Now, a person can interpret something however they want, but, when interpreting one should try to avoid emotional attachment to their idea, because it can turn out they are wrong.

Ghouls exist, humans became ghouls who were not in V12. That is the way of things. Oh, and Beth are not the ones who did this, as ghouls were in Tactics, published by Interplay.

The topic is How Do You Feel about ghouls from outside vault 12...

Tactics used ghouls for the same reason Bethesda did (and will continue to)... That doesn't mean it's right or what was intended. Supermutants were also only intended for Southern California ~and like ghouls they appeared in Tactics. Tactics was an RTS, and RTS games need distinctive unit classes and factions to fill out their armies. They took what they needed from the IP to skin their game ~same as Bethesda.

In FO3 (and beyond) Ghouls are a effectively a beast-race for Fallout. That's not how they were intended.

Kind of hard to say only intended for Southern Cali when in FO2 they in northern Cali and even in FO1 it is said there are more than just Harold in the Hub, but not seen.

And yes, I know the topic. Doesn't change that if you get an emotional attachment to an interpretation your feeling will always be disappointment when it is not correct. When people get emotional over what is basically a guess, they tend to give harsh criticism, which isn't necessarily good. Constructive criticism is good, and that generally comes when you leave your personal feelings aside.

It does not break canon, heck, in VB they were gonna have ghoul babies.

It depends on whose doing the saying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4XVW6qcuzM#t=3m10s

Probably going to get ignored but I'll still try

I honestly don't think we can depend on the developers for this one guys. Ghouls were added at the time because "they were cool" and i believe the whole 50s radiation mutant phase was the cause of all this. So we have to ask ourselves, what was the lore behind those 50s syfy mutants? Radiation of course... I came up with the "Daybreaker" and "Sponge" Theories, both of them are very similar

The Daybreaker theory is from the movie along with how the wiki claims Desmond Lockheart turned into the ghoul "though it is in no way confirmed
-a non lethal, small, constant dose of radiation will cause people to turn into ghouls

The Daybreaker theory goes low dosages of ration over time will cause the ghoul transformation. Too much Radiation at a time and you'll end up like http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Trash or The victims of West Tek. But just a tiny bit of radiation spilling into that http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110409182625/fallout/images/c/ce/Fo1_Vault_12_Level_1.pnghttp://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=595&tbm=isch&tbnid=3mWqw2UcOx0rpM:&imgrefurl=http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault_12&docid=uZvAn_1iJ0aiIM&imgurl=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110409182625/fallout/images/c/ce/Fo1_Vault_12_Level_1.png&w=1915&h=1327&ei=XfZ4UebPLeSJiAKYpIG4Bw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:1,s:0,i:86&iact=rc&dur=628&page=1&tbnh=177&tbnw=209&start=0&ndsp=15&tx=121&ty=15and your body will begin to mutate. Kind of like how soldiers adapt to the weather of foreign lands. Except in this case instead of weather your body is adapting to radiation with the help of the radiation itself (because radiation mutates cells irl). This might explain why people living under harsh radiation conditions most likely end up as ghouls.

The Sponge theory is from one of your comments.
-The body carries radiation like a sponge, over time it will begin to mutate if the person doesn't take in a deadly dose before the transformation is complete.

I noticed how Ghouls are always treated like second class citizens.. Perhaps this is because most Ghouls are *ehm* Beta / second class humans. Do you notice how most Ghouls are pushovers or have a survivalist mindset? Lenny, Rotface, Charon, Gob, Raul. Anyways my theory is this. Being exposed to radiation kills you. BUT your body can hold a certain amount of radiation. If your body holds a certain amount of radiation for a certain amount of time it will start too effect with your genes and cause your body to mutate, causing your skin to melt or burn. That being said Radiation can still kill you if your body doesn't adapt before exposure.

Now most people, like the Courier, Vault Dweller and farmers know to use what money they have to pay for a cheap 50 cap radiation shots. HOWEVER deep wasteland survivalist and the very poor usually don't have access to medicine so they cannot get the radiation out of their bodies, thus their change is inedible. To me this explains the common Beta personality most ghouls share, people are bigots to poor people because most of them are "Beta" and take abuse. If you notice important people and factions that are doing almost never turn into ghouls or mutants, because they have access to the meds that keep the radiation at bay.
Avarge person = can afford medicine to take away radiation
Poor people / Survivalist = Can't afford medicine or Don't want to see a doctor


Radaway and Rad-X restarts / destroys the Ghoulification process. People who do not get treatment are bound to become ghouls

Agreed... but you have to stick with that theory... It's the 'Forbidden Planet' style of 'radiation'; the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantula_%28film%29 style atomic research... When you view such a film, you are not supposed to debunk it, or distract from the story by trying to explain it, or explain it away. To do so with Fallout is to indulge in a gross double standard.

What about Set, and most of the Necropolis? Those Ghouls had the opinion that they surpassed the Norms; and even enjoyed the heat that killed non-ghouls.... Think about that. Why would any Ghoul consider it a danger to a non-ghoul if a non-ghoul could become one and enjoy the radiation too?

It's fine to have that stance it's just it's intended as an isolated incident (supposedly) without unique circumstances

I seem to be having some problems figuring out what exactly it is you're trying to say to me here. It's fine for me to have my stance as I stated it but without it being a unique event?

I think he saying you can think what you want, but it doesn't make any sense.

I definitely agree with this as well. While I see no reason there can't be ghouls from other locations they should be rare and ideally never another large population. Fallout 3 and New Vegas both got this wrong in Underworld and Searchlight. Van Buren too with the Reservation but as often happened in Van Buren even if I disliked the concept at least they were doing something interesting with it rather than just having a ghoul town for the sake of having a ghoul town.

Instead of just having populations of ghouls all over the country why not put in different groups of unique mutants in other regions? The Marked Men from Lonesome Road for instance. Why did they have to be ghouls? Why couldn't the circumstances in the Divide have created something unique like the Tunnelers?

I have to say, I lean more towards this theory than the other. Both very well stated though, kudos.

Ok basically what i'm saying is that you have an opinion but no concrete evidence or explanation to go on.

As i said earlier "I'm fine with ghouls being able to originate from other places than vault 12 as there isn't a compelling argument to support vault 12 being an isolated event from what i have seen"

And evlbastrd summarized it "I think he saying you can think what you want, but it doesn't make any sense."

There is one problem with Sponge theory/second class citizens.

Dead Money/Dean Domino. There are of course other examples, but one ghoul out of a lot of people, who were upper class citizens at the Sierra Madre.

Another problem with said theory is Vault 12 itself. Vaults have advanced medical tech and doctors. Unless this Vault was stripped of medical tech as part of the experiment, one has to wonder whattup?

Another problem with Vault 12 is the nature of vaults themselves. Multi level underground facilities. Note, that unless a nuke hit the vault area with a direct hit, radiation has a hard time going through earth. Modern day ma and pop bomb shelters protect from radiation, and they are not nearly as deep or as advanced as a Vault Tec Vault.

Survivalists also know of the danger of radiation and to avoid it, like the survivalist in Honest Hearts who not only did not become a ghoul, but he lived a very long life, considering the environment.

Dead Money/Dean Domino. There are of course other examples, but one ghoul out of a lot of people, who were upper class citizens at the Sierra Madre.

i was going to use Dean as an example but i got sleepy. Dean didn't have a choice because he was stuck in the Sierra Madre. Same for Set and the residence of Vault 12. But i was stereotyping the ghouls personality as a majority because most of them have the common traits of poor, washed up people. You see people like Benny, Caesar and Alice will never end up as ghouls because their too important to the community and they will probably always treat themselves. Ghouls like Dean can still shine but most of them don't know how.

Sry i'm not sure if im making myself clear

Survivalists also know of the danger of radiation and to avoid it, like the survivalist in Honest Hearts who not only did not become a ghoul, but he lived a very long life, considering the environment.

That survivalist had access to Med-x and radaway from the scientist supplies, i assume that people who use radiation meds don't turn into ghouls. Also most survivalist are loners, meaning when they do make a mistake or accidentally get radiation poisoning from eating radioactive food they won't go to a doctor because their loners. Harland admits its lonely for a ghoul out there.

Another problem with said theory is Vault 12 itself. Vaults have advanced medical tech and doctors. Unless this Vault was stripped of medical tech as part of the

experiment, one has to wonder whattup?

Radiation supplies was probably taken out because of the experiment. But i'm kind of with you since they decided to make Vaults an experiment at fo2... sounds like something pulled out of developers ass but it still works and makes sence. Also it was only an example vault... so it wouldn't get so much supplies?

Another problem with Vault 12 is the nature of vaults themselves. Multi level underground facilities. Note, that unless a nuke hit the vault area with a direct hit, radiation has a hard time going through earth. Modern day ma and pop bomb shelters protect from radiation, and they are not nearly as deep or as advanced as a Vault Tec Vault.

If it was part of the experiment the designers probably found some ingenious way for the radiation to get. Also if your referring to the Slags they had fungus and i think its canon fungus absorbs radiation

Now i'm not trying to explain how pre-war ghouls got that way. Im trying to explain how new ghouls are created. Poor people just outa luck who cant find or afford ghoul-curing Radaway.

Again, there a lot of rich folk in Sierra Madre, only Dean out of thousands of people became a ghoul.

Meds can help people, but it isn't just rads, as a lot of people die where some become ghouls.

Isn't the sierra madre empty? I though Dean was the soul survivor because everyone else was killed by holograms, died from the red cloud or turned into ghost people. I assume for whatever reason Dean wasn't one of the people who took up a ghost uniform.

Moira only person from Megaton turned into a ghoul.

The woman in NV who tries to become a ghoul, dies.

People who go to the Glow in FO 1 die.

If the player character exposes their body to rads, you die.

Radiation is just one piece of the puzzle.

I think I already said that I'm not arguing for the legality of my stance given how the later games contradict it, and that I was giving a vote for "preferred circumstances" (and the reasons for said preference), so I don't see how it's relevant to slam my stance by stating "it doesn't make any sense" (a statement that would be potently false, had my stance been the official case - the narrative of it being a different discussion).

My case was always about "how I would've liked it to be handled in place of how it was" - especially in the post you quoted.