BIG NOTE: Sorry for the super essay, and sorry if my post isn't really coherent, its super late as I'm closing it up for the night, but i wanted to post something so I could keep it in mind. If anyone has any thoughts on what I wrote, please give your say. But here it is:

This post is definitely not done...its a lot of grafted ideas that I kind of patched together from notes I wrote. There's a lot more to submit, but I'm just putting this out there as is right now. The main key of this post is to share ideas that might be able to make it into the game if gamesas feels it coulld help the game. I've been a huge fan of TES since Oblivion and mod it a lot myself, so I just wanna give any ideas I can. Even if none of these ideas would be implemented it's still fine. I'll probably mod something like this when Skyrim is released if that happens.

I will say though, the number one request I have of the Dev team working on Skyrim...would be to either separate the speed value from weapons and place it on the NPC as a variable, adding a "speed modifier multiplier variable" to the game, or just making some way to modify the NPC's attacking speed with a particular weapon WITHOUT changing the speed of all the weapons of the same type. As it is in Oblivion right now, if you change the speed of a weapon that an NPC is equipping, you change the speed of that weapon, regardless of who is using it. So if the player is using an Iron Dagger, and I recalculate the speed of that iron dagger based on various factors like Weapon Skill, Strength, Current Encumbrance, etc, it will change all the Iron Daggers in the game. And if someone comes up to me wth an Iron dagger, they will attack me with the same speed that I am attacking them with.

What my idea's main key to do is to make battles more immersive by creating specialties for NPCs and have them attack at diverse attacking rates. For example, if a Bosmer (which gets a racial speed bonus from using bows) who is a Journeyman with short bows, attacks me, I'll be fighting a strong woodelf who can shoot many arrows at me. In that case I'd have to constantly keep my guard up in order to get close to him as he shoots many arrows at me. But alternatively, if I fought an Orc(which has a racial penalty from bow usage) who is also a Journeyman in bows, I wouldn't have nearly as hard of a fight to deal with.

With this sort of system, it'd be easy to adjust the intensity of an NPC or dungeon as well. For example, if you create an Enemy for the player to fight, with random stats, you can alter the difficulty of the NPC by altering the level of mastery in their skills, and making the engine pick a weapon that either fits, or doesnt suit their stats. Like for a weak dungeon you could have Orcs with low strength, low One Hand Weapon mastery, light armor and daggers, or Bosmers in heavy armor with maces. Or for a very difficult dungeon you can have High Speed dual weild Khajiit with high mastery in one hand and offhand attacks, or High Elves with fast casting wands, books for buffs, and various other casting abilities. The diversity is endless, and would really help the immersion.

So the idea I had was to just separate Attack Speed's final calculation from being a static value, by adding a speed multiplier of some sort. Something like this....

NPC Attack Speed = Weapon-Type Speed * (NPC Attack Speed Multiplier)

Where "Weapon-Type Speed" is equal to the static speed value shared by one class of weapon. For example: in Oblivion all Dagger Class weapons have 1.4 as speed. That would be the "Weapon-Type Speed".

Then you would multiply that speed by the "NPC's Attack Speed Multiplier" variable. You can then set any equation to that variable that you want and create diverse battles.
If you dont want to implement any formulas for the "NPC Attack Speed Multiplier" yourself, you could just initialize the "NPC Attack Speed Multiplier" variable at "1" and it wont affect anything in the end game. But please, please, please, pleaseeee add this functionality when you create Skryim T_T.

----------------END NOTE----------------

Introduction!

I had an idea for immersive Combat to add onto what was already implemented in Oblivion. This is an idea i wanted to implement in Oblivion for a very very long time, but because of the structure of combat Oblivion it was impossible without a LOTTTT of scripting. Here's the general synopsis for the combat immersion:

Immersive Combat

One of the things that bothered me a lot in Oblivion was that no matter what the situation, what race you were, or what your stats were... As long as you had enough "carrying weight" to pick up a weapon, you could weild it like a pro. Also, no matter how much you used that weapon class you wouldn't really improve other than a few special abilities(knockdown chance) and animations of swinging the the weapon...So to me it made weapon styles feel a lot less catered to your character. All you worried about in the end was the enchantments/damage the weapon did and you were good to go. Most would keep high damage equipment and just ditch the rest (I know I did). To offset this, different weapons did have varying speeds, so you could have a small level of immersion based on your preferences...but that still didnt add too much derivation. All short hand swords had the same speed, all two handed maces had the same speed, etc. So, I'd still use the strongest 1 handed sword I could find, but if I found a 1 handed mace (which had about the same speed) which was stronger than my 1 handed sword, I'd just use that instead...so to add onto immersion I had this idea.

First I'll explain the concept of the idea and how it fits into the world, then how it could be implemented (with formulas and such too) and finally add some extra tidbits that could bring it all together to enrich the experience of combat.


In the Beginning...God(You) Created an NPC in His Image...

When I visualize a starting level 1 NPC, I envision them as the average Joe. They're not very strong or very skilled in self defense or magic, just your average person. So due to their low level of skill and strength, it's in their best interest to use a small weapon to defend themselves in the beginning. An iron short sword, or iron dagger would be ideal here. The reason for the use of these smaller weapons is due to their light weight. Having a light weight weapon would make it easy for the person to get comfortable holding a weapon in their hands. This light weapon weapon would teach the NPC the basics of combat: timing attacks, defending, dodging(if they're more interested in that style of fighting), parrying attacks, counters, etc. Simultaneously, using this weapon would passively increase the strength in their muscles as they hold the weapon, strike their opponents, defend against oncoming attacks, and carry it on their side.

As your NPC gets more and more comfortable using a weapon, and stronger through the usage of the short sword, slowly more options become accessible to that NPC. If they prefer, they can pick up a one-handed iron mace or traditional one handed sword. This split is important, since bashing an enemy's skull in with a mace isnt exactly the same as slicing and stabbing it with a sword. He'll be strong enough to wield that mace, and have comfort with swinging it to a small degree but he doesn't have full comfort with using a mace, so it will be like learning something new. The basics of holding a weapon comfortably in one hand remain, but the shape and weight on a mace are very different from the dagger he was used to.

This same situation applies to the one handed sword. Although it's a blade like the short sword he's accustomed to, its a longer blade and thus heavier. The method he uses to attack with it doesnt really change, but the NPC will have to get accustomed to the heavier weight, size difference, and range of the sword. So he will have to train the one handed sword like it's something new, just not nearly as much as if he was training with the brand new mace. He'll understand the one handed sword quicker because of his experience with daggers/shortswords.

On a side note, since the mace and one handed sword are heavier than the dagger he used previously, those weapons would increase his strength at a slightly accelerated rate as compared to the dagger(they'll get stronger using these weapons since they push the muscles to work more). But because of the heavier weight they will be hard to use. This is to help making newer heavier weapons challenging to use at first, but rewarding you for taking the time out to use them. When you upgrade your weapon it wont feel like the same experience...it'll be brand new.

Let's assume now that this NPC likes one handed swords and decides to become a master one handed swordsman. He can then use one handed swords for the rest of the game. As he uses one handed swords his skill with one handed swords will increase a great deal. He'll be able to understand distancing of the one handed sword along with the flow of the battle, how to defend better, and how to strike at the enemy's vital point more efficiently with that type of weapon. He'll also be much faster with one handed swords than with any other weapon, since that is his specialty. He'll also be able to take some of that skill and apply it to other one handed weapons...but not with the level of mastery of a one handed sword. It's said that a master with a stone can beat a novice with a sword 100% of the time. That's the concept that is being shown here.

There's also one more factor to be taken into consideration. Since Oblivion houses many races, each with their own history, traditions, upbringings, natural body build, etc...as a result, each race will be gifted in certain skill sets and average or poor in others. For example, the Altmer (High Elves) are tall statured, but usually very thin. They're also close descendents of the Aylieds, and thus tend to be easily acclimated with magic. Magic would definitely be an Altmer's natural forte, but if the High Elf decided he wanted to be a master of two handed maces, it WOULD be possible, it just would be harder for them, and they also would not be as good with two handed maces as say...an Orc. Or similar to the joke of the Bosmer http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Brodras who was a trainer of Heavy armor, despite him being a member of the small statured High Elf race, who says "Not every Bosmer sneaks around with bows and arrows. I'm as tough and beefy as any Orc."

So in a nutshell there would be three factors governing how you perform in combat. Strength and Comfort using a particular weapon class, NPC's Skill in a Particular weapon, and the NPC's Race.
If you're not strong enough to wield the weapon then you couldn't pick it up anyway right? First you have to be able to pick up the weapon and hold it comfortably. Next would come the particulars in relation to skill. In the beginning you would not be the greatest swordsman, perhaps only able to do a few swings. You'd also use more energy to swing it since you'd most likely get off balance, even if you were strong enough for it. You'd have to master that weapon type's basics. Then you'd master improve on that and get faster and stronger. Then you'd learn how to hit more critical places and make your attacks more consise and use less energy. Finally as a master you could do things with that weapon that few can do, swinging it faster than anyone else, and with high accuracy and without getting fatigued.

Race Stat Breakdown

In line with above this is how skills would be affected by race
* - Mediocre (Takes big penalty)
** - Poor (Small Penalty)
*** - Average(No Penalty)
**** - Good(Small Bonus)
***** - Excellent(Big Bonus


Orc Race
***** - Heavy Armor, Two Handed Mace, One Handed Maces
**** - Two Handed Sword, Tower Shield
*** - One Handed Swords, Spears/Sticks
** -
* - All Magic, Bows, Light Armor

(More stats coming, far from done)

What I ideally want to create with this system is this: You can have a Orc Master of Two handed mace wield their weapon like a berserker, both skillfully and quickly. Smashing everything in their path. Their weapon would still have base speed penalties, but they will at least be MUCH faster than they were when they first began using two handed swords/maces.

You can also create a master dual wielding khajiit assassin wearing light armor and using shortswords, who can slice an enemy so quickly that even though the attacks are weak, it makes up for it in number of hits and maneuverability.

Or you can create a Master Short Bow Using Bosmer, who can shoot their bow so quickly that they can fire multiple arrows in their foe, before they can get a chance to retaliate. But in order to gan that speed, the bosmer sacrifices defense(light armor bonuses), shooting distance(short bow cant shoot as far), and power(long bows factor in strength as well as dexterity for damage, while short bow only factors in dex and at a lower damage ratio).

Max range = 75% Increase to Speed 25% in skill(20% in sub class/5% in overall class), 10% in Strength, 10% in race. Also an increase in weapon speed is added from your Speed Stat itself.
Exception to this is daggers/short swords as daggers require no strength to weild. Speed takes its place in the formula instead.
This is affected however by varying penalties: Total encumbrance %, strength threshold, remaining fatigue, armor type or perhaps armor weight vs armor type, injury, and racial penalties.

---------------------------------------------CODING IDEAS AND IMPLEMENTATION-----------------------------------------
THIS PART NOT DONE!!!

Application

Race Specialty and Personal Specialty

These tiers would be transparent to the end user (doesnt show your skill with one handed weapons or Like "weapon type specialy = one handed maces", as skill with one handed weapons increases it increases the skill a small amount for each of the specialtes and increases skill with one handed mace a large amount. Rate of growth diminishes as you get too acclimated with one weapon. You get skilled with a one handed mace at a set rate the more you use it. But the rate of growth of your strength(damage bonuses from strength) diminishes if the weapon is too light. Down side of using this particular method is that it "forces" the player to use heavier weapons. But this is not entirely true. As you use the same weapon it has a minimum cap. It will always increase strength's bonus a small amount. One handed weapon bonus rate of growth diminishes as you use only 1 type of weapon as well. Using many types of weapons will increase your overall talent with one handed weapons. Meaning, trainng with your one handed mace will make you a lot better with one handed maces, and it will also increase your skill with one handed weapons overall to a small degree, but the overall skill with one handed weapons has a cap(its damamge is essentially a bonus: Main damage + (skill modifier*overall One Handed weapon skill level) For example if you master . Heavier weapons increase strength at an accelerated rate. But you can't pickup any weapon that is too heavy for you to beigin with. (Prevents imbalanced). Also if the weapon is very heavy and you can barely lift it, you take penalties in movement, have longer recovery frames, longer startup frames, have chance to miss swing or over swing, enemies can dodge and counter you easily,

SKILL IN UPPER TIER UNLOCKS BASICS IN ALL SUB TIERS!!! THIS IS BIG DEAL!!!

Upper Tier:

• One Handed Weapons - Affected by any one handed weapon.
  
  • One Handed Mace
    
  • Daggers + Short Sword
    
  • One Handed Swords
    
  • Off Hand Sword(Calculated Separately From One Handed)
  
  
• Two Handed Weapons - Affected by any two handed weapon or one handed weapon held in dual weapon mode. (L + R)
  
  • Two Handed Mace - A one handed mace hald in two hands counts as 1/4 of a two handed mace. Meaning iit will tran your skill in two handed maces but at 25% the speed of a much heavier two handed mace. But you can swing it faster(obviously) and it gives you the comfort with using a two handed wmace overall
    
  • Claymore/Two handed sword - A one handed sword held in both hands counts as 1/4th of a claymore. Meaning it will train your skill in claymores at 25% the speed of a much heavier claymore. But you can swing it faster and increases your comfort with a claymore. A dagger held in two hands counts as 1/8th of a claymore(but I think a dagger shouldn't be held in two hands since the hilt is small...impractical but you can use it if you really want to.) meaning it will tran skill of 2hand weps at 12.5% of a claymore...not really worth it to program I
    
  • Spear/Stick
  
  
• Shields
  
  • Buckler
    
  • Tower Shield
  
  
• Bows
  
  • Long Bow(More Strength Needed to Draw this comfortably but allows for stronger bow strikes)
    
  • Short Bow(Little Strength needed but much faster loading favorite(This would be the dagger equivalent of a bow) )
  
  
• Magic
  
  • Books (
    
  • Dual Hand Casting
    
  • Arcane Magic
    
  • Staffs(Two handed + strong melee, stronger magic)
    
  • Wands(One handed Staff, Weak Melee, Weak magic but faster cast, allows offhand stuff like shield or book, or free hand casting)
    
  • Enchanted Weapons

----------------------CODE END----------------------------------------
-------------------------------------NOTE: REST ARE PIECED TOGETHER NOTES, NOT DONE.-------------------------------------

A small leather buckler might also work if they're interested in that style of fighting. Having a shield would increase the strength in the opposite hand similar to the use of the first weapon. It would also increase their skill in usage of shields, their overall defense, and being ambidextrous. Another option for the NPC while training with the dagger/smallsword would be to alter their grip with the weapon. They could either hold it in one hand(weaker, but faster and allows for a shield), two-hand(stronger and would train the NPC to be able to use Claymores and other heavier weapons, but no shield) or dual wield(weak, but fastest attack and relentless but very awkward at first and takes a lot of practice, also the defense of the offhand weapon would not be as strong as a traditional shield, but since its lighter than a shield you can move faster and dodge better). But for simplicity sake, lets just take the one hand Dagger example to start. So you create a new character and the first weapon he acquires is a dagger. He fin

Formulas:

Up to level 20 for all upper tier skills
Up to level 100 for all sub tier skills
Sub tier is harder to level up as it increases in level.

Damage will be = Base weapon damage
Speed Will Be multiplied by a speed multiplier. Speed Multiplier is calculated from Race Specialty Multiplier + Upper Tier Specialty Multiplier + Subtier Multiplier(For that weapon). The reason for this is so that no matter what, as long as you focus on a tier of weaponry(essentially some style of play) you will always get some form of bonus. This allows race specialties to be created, weapon speciialty (in the broad sense) or weapon type specialty (specific weapon classes) to be created. You can be Vanir the Woodelf, Master of the Longbow or Arcadius the Redguard, Master of One Handed Weapons. The balance comes from the time it takes to level up each individual weapon class. You can be a jack of all trades, but master of none or have a weapon specialty. All would be treated the same way, but with certain races having certain boosts for certain weapon types. Also, mastering a weapon will give you a bonus by itself and the bonus that an individual weapon skill gives is higher than the bonus given by the upper tier. So it is a very good idea to make a weapon specialty in terms of efficiency, but you're not losing out on TOO much if you want to master many styles of weapons. It just impacts you a bit if it doesnt fit your race well...and it also takes tha tmuch more time to get good at many styles of weapon. Idea! much Having


Skill animations will be unlocks based on skill in that weapon plus upper tier skill level/num of sub tier skills example:
Sub tier of One hand weapons has 4 subskills. so each of those subtiers has 20/4 = 5 skill points to contribute to One hand weapon skill overall
So every 20 levels in One hand Sword will give 1 skill point in One hand weapons. Same for mace, offhand weapon, etc. THe only downside to this s that it forces you to
train with all weapon styles. So alternatively, do this: 1 points for every 10 levels up to level 60, 1 point for each of the next 20 levels (those are hard to get levels anyway), and knowing two weapon types will give you an easy 12 points in One hand weapon skill which I think is fair. If you master one One-hand weapon and level two others to level 60 as alternates, you will max out one hand weapons skilll....this seems ideal and immersive Snce someone who can use 3 weapon types skillfully would be considered extremely good. This also allows for realistic mastery of one hand weapons in groups: ie:

Off hand(Master)(+8), one hand 60. (+6), and dagger(+6) = 20
1H Mace(Master)(+8), One Hand Sword 60(+6), Dagger 60 (+6) = 20
Dagger(Master)(+8), Offhand 60(+6), 1H Mace 60(+6) = 20

One handed weapon skill will add 1 – 20 damage to all attacks/ 1 - 5 bonus to weapon speed

-------------------NOTE BREAK----------------


Let me know what you think guys...

- ShinGouki

Wow.

I dont suppose a language arts teacher will make us turn in a report on your post just kidding...

on topic: You have some good ideas and i hope the Developers look to us for advice on what we want in the game... even tho im sure the game is probably 60-80% done already...

I love your dedication. Some very good ideas in here. It would take me ages to do a post like this because I'm a slow typer.
Edit: Yes I hope BGS looks us as to what needs to be fixed in patches.

Just posted 'cause I feel I earned the right to, after reading that rant. :deal:


Seriously though, some good ideas. A lot of the variables you address here I've always thought would add a new level of depth to the gameplay, I just never put all that much thought into what it would take to implement them. As was stated in a previous post--your dedication should be commended. :clap:

Awesome idea. I think it is probably too late to see this big of a change make it in as they have already said they are pretty happy with the current combat system but I would definitely play a game with this combat style, it is vastly superior to most games out there, especially when it comes to RPGs.

That sounds very interesting in theory, I'd like to see how it played.

A post that I have to book mark and finish tomorrow?! BLASPHEMY!

I hope you don't mind me asking. How long did that take you to do that?

Only an street fighter fan could bring forth such dedication

I'm reserving this post for tommorrow once I've had enough sleep to read this properly and post a response

Yes this thread is so long I had to make a reservation.

Could you post a link of bethesda saying they are happy with the current combat? because in the GI article they said they know the players are probably tired of the combat system in previous elder scrolls and that they want to change it to make it more exciting and alot more fun then just slashing endlessly, I think the op's idea might already be implemented ( atleast I hope), oh well we'll find out on monday when the combat article comes out.

Your first idea about individual weapon speed is very likely implemented in Skyrim because they are trying to make each weapon type feel unique and they also need the ability to boost individual weapon stats via perks so yeah I think that one is in the bag.

I like the idea of having to use a lighter weapon at the beginning of the game because of low skill and as you increase your combat skills/strength you can advance to more powerful weapons.

But having racial bonuses for certain weapons is something I think they shouldn't implement. First off because they wouldn't make a lot of sense (why would a skilled orc have penalties for fighting with a dagger) and secondly, you would again be in the position where you're using only one type of weapon without any reason except aesthetics for switching to another one.

I have to say that the opening post is the most amazing thing I've read on these forums. I only wish I had the dedication and concentration to fully understand and be able to anolyse it.

However, I fear that game development is most likely beyond the point where something like this could be factored in. My best suggestion is that you put the idea to one side and use it as the basis for an awesome combat mod

I read enough to know this thread needs a medal of sorts. Funny how these forums can range from one-word spam to this.

Factor in an attack speed multiplier / race sounds very good. If I understand correctly your post, an Orc that usually wields a longsword shouldn't be able to swing a dagger at the same rate as a Khajit assassin - not easily, not commonly anyway. More diverse combats with more unpredictable NPCs. That's what I want.

Not sure I understand though the whole concept of "starting with a dagger and getting comfortable with the weapon", or how it could be implemented. Added clumsiness in proportion to the weight of the weapon ? Like, a dagger would be easy to pick and get good at, while a longsword would be tough to master ? It sort of makes sense though, and it would kind of even out the damage discrepancy.

Anyway, I'll pore over it some more.

My eyes...I'm still reading and have tons to go. Anywho, love your idea. Aaaaand, Im gonna read the rest tomorrow.

No offense, but I don't like the notion of being restrained by what you chose at the outset of the game nor needing to go through a path of all different weapon types. Sure, it would make things more realistic, but TES isn't meant to be a simulator. Many people (myself included) simply like the "path to hone a weapon" to already be passed (or not) by the time they've ended up in their prison cell (at which point the actual game starts). Also, forcing everyone to go through that path would limit the number of choices you have (cause, let's face it, everyone will have to go through daggers and swords first), which would really upset the people who like to roleplay.
On another note, many of the things you mentioned are already implemented, though not at such an immersive level: race advantages come in the form of attribute and skill bonuses at the start (and yes, it does have a significant effect on the starting game), Fatigue (now renamed Stamina) reflects the difficulty of using a heavy weapon, and weapon mastery is reflected by what your power strikes can or can't do.

EDIT: flame me if you want to, I'm not flammable :flamethrower:

I read through some of this and there are some good ideas hope Bethesda see this.

Oh my... :no:

Thanks for the positive comments everyone. I still haven't really rested but I'll finish up the rest of my notes and formulas as soon as I can. It'll be more clear then.



The reason for the penalties is to balance out some of the benefits from increasing the diversity of attack speed. Since you can get up to 75% increase in attacking speed, you need nerfs on certain weapons setups in order to increase diversity and keep balance. The point in the racial bonus though is to add more immersion and linking to the lore: For example, if you want to play a thief in Oblivion you can ideally play any character and you'd get more or less the same result...but I have some options written down for the beasts races to make them better for thievery: dual blade proficiency, lockpicking, athletics, sneaking, long bows(Khajiit).

Also, when I say the Orc would be nerfed using a dagger or buffed while using a mace, I'm not saying the nerf/buff from your race would be very large, its just to make it so that certain races WILL have an overall easier time with a certain style of play. This will encourage you to try different races, different styles of play and also to place weapons in the hands of NPCs that more fit the immersion factor. For example: For a strong Orc NPC, wouldn't it be a lot scarier to see this Huge Orc run at you with a giant two handed Axe or large one handed mace, swinging it faster than anyone else does(from his race bonus, strength bonus, and proficiency in the skill) as opposed to him running at you with a traditional sword and shield? Or alternatively, fighting a skilled Imperial Fencer with a sword and shield who dances around you, parrying and blocking your attacks and punishing you with ease. Both of these styles of opponents are scary in their own right, but if you flipped the race to weapon combination wouldn't it look a bit weird? lol.

That also isn't to say that your 6 foot tall Nord, can't be an excellent thief...if you want to you can make a Nord thief and do very well...but Nords are just not exactly built like ninjas...you just have to work harder to play that role. Which is also what racial additions of buffs/penalties can do: Add challenge, more roleplaying elements and replay value. If you want to fit your roleplaying, you can really be just like Brodras and be a Wood Elf with heavy armor. No one's gonna stop you, that's your character and you can build him how you want in the end ^_^. But I wouldn't be telling the truth if I didn't say it might be easier for you to pick an Orc, Redguard, or Nord for that instead.

Also, there's some parts that are left out that explain why it is more than aesthetics with using a better weapon. Most better weapons in the game ("higher damaging") tend to be heavier than the class below them...at least 80% of the time: ie: iron, steel, silver, dwarven, elven, glass, ebony, daedric. Commonly daedric is the heaviest, ebony is second heaviest, then the rest I'm not so sure about weight positioning. But when it comes to which weapon you pick, there would be a strength threshold formula applied to to the weapon you wish to use. The calculation for the formula is based on the weapon type (heavier class weapons require more strength as opposed to swords of the same weight[2 hand axe/mace]) and the weapon's actual weight. I have a formula written out already but I cant find it...but the essence of the formula is like this: After the strength threshold is determined, you compare your strength to the required strength. If you have exactly the amount needed to equip the weapon, you can wield it comfortably at normal speed. If you have at least 20% strength above the requirement, you will get a boost in speed to 110%, if you have 30% strength you will get a boost to 115% and the weapon wont be factored into your overall movement speed(debating this in balance). In reverse however, if you are short of the required strength by 1-20% you will only attack at 90% of normal speed. If you are short by 21-30% you will attack at 80% normal speed and occasionally lose balance or fumble while attacking. If you are short 31% or below, the game will not allow you to wield the weapon.

Here's an example of what I mean:
For a Redguard with 55 Str wielding an axe of 60 weight
Axe multiplier = 1.0
One hand sword multiplier = 1.1
Strength Requirement = [(Weapon Weight * Weapon Type Multiplier)]
Str Req = [(60 Weight * 1.0)]
Str Req = 60

Str Threshold Calculation = [( Wep Str Requirment) - (NPC Strength)]
Threshold = 60 - 55
Threshold = 5
If threshold is more than 0, calculate 20% of str req

Attack Speed Modifier = (str req) * (.2)
atk speed mod = (60) * (.2)
atk speed mod = 12
If atk speed mod is more than or equal to threshold then,
Strength Based Atk Speed Modifier = (0.9) [90% of atk speed]

That Strength Based AtkSpeed modifier would be then added into the calculations for your final attack speed when you swing your weapon.



Higher level weapons will require more strength to wield due to higher weight, so getting that extra 30% strength for the maximum bonus becomes harder for those higher class weapons, but those bonuses are much more accessible to lighter weapons of the same type. That way you will be able to get benefits from using weaker, lighter weapons of the same type. Like in the last example, you'd need 30% extra strength from 60 STR to get the maximum speed bonus from your strength. In this case you'd need a whopping 78 strength to get the most out of the weapon. But another mace of 30 strength would only need 39 STR to get the 115% speed bonus. By being able to pummel your opponents more quickly by using a weapon that's lighter you can use strategy to figure out which way to fight. If you need to kill off weaker foes that come at you in waves, that faster, lighter, but weaker weapon you used a few levels ago would be very useful, since it would allow you to quickly switch target and optimize your movements while still dishing out damage. But if you are fighting one on one with a slower moving tough enemy with high defense, you can use a stronger and heavier weapon to attack and do the most damage.

Hm I went off on another small rant again...but I hope that clears up any misconceptions about diversity...Also to help diversity even further, I would try to keep at least 3 weapon types as "excellent" race modifiers for each race. THis way there are really multiple ways to fight, and you aren't that' limited. But now is time for sleeep, Goodnight.

Thanks agian all of you for taking the time out to come to my thread and read, if it's too late to implement these ideas I stll will be sure to make this mod a reality....but it mostly depends on how attack speed is handled in the finalized project. BUt this mod will be realized definitely. Take care everyone!

No flaming from me! Especially not on this really nice forum. I learned a lot from your post as well, I ddnt know whether the changes in races make a big deal in this version of TES or not. I know that a Nord or an Altmer or a Redguard, starting off in Oblivion didn't really make a difference in performance. You had to just do the lore and roleplay yourself...which isnt bad...I'm just trying to make that roleplay a little easier to work with.

Truthfully speaking a lot of my ideas of function comes from other RPGs like Demon Souls. In that game you had a starting character build you could take like barbarian, archer, mage, etc...and that's how you START OUT. But you ultimately would decide how you'll finish. That's what I'm getting at with this. I definitely don't want to force anyone to play the game any specific way, but rather increase diversity and to make the choices a little easier to work with in the beginning and all the way through.

Also, I wouldn't want this to only be reflected in the player but mostly in the NPCs... I think that's where the true immersion lies. How the NPC acts and looks when you confront them...this is what determines the immersion of combat. In Oblivion, I know all the attack timings of every npc that uses a two handed sword and every npc that uses a short sword...because those attack speeds are hard coded...but what happens when I can't predict that? All of a sudden I have to be much more careful with my approach. I have to anolyze and be more cautious...and most important I have to use my character's specialties to my advantage as much as possible or I will end up dead xD...that's what I'm aiming for here as well.

Edit: But I definitely see your point about immersion in relation to honing weapons at character creation, and I didnt think of it to that extent. I'll take that into consideration when I calculate penalties and bonuses based on races a bit more...thank you!

Just as long as there's no major Strength requirements like in New Vegas. That was bull, I felt like I was playing Runescape again, even if it is more realistic that way. But it wasn't so bad in New Vegas as long as you had like 7 Strength or something.

NPC = Non-player character

PC = Player character

I will read it later and comment more when I have the time, seems heavy though.

You should make a mod, you have clearly thought this out in great detail, this is what the creation kit is for, people like you who have an idea that you have put a lot of effort into.