I am really not a fan of the leveling system, firstly forcing you to have a certain SPECIAL in some areas where it really does not make sense (it does in some areas) and more importantly requiring a certain level to be able to advance a skill.

Take lockpicking for example where to get the max perk you need to be level 41, which in practice means that you need to kill a crapload of enemies to be able to master the skill of lockpicking, it does not make any sense. Or take a skill like The Lone Wanderer where you get a bonus if you travel alone, that requires Charisma 3 for some reason that is also totally nonlogical. All in all the leveling system feels very artifical and not very logical at all. It feels very generic and "gamey" in a way, not logical and immersive.

Now I have a much better system in mind that would be much more logical and also more fun I think. The idea is to still have requirements so you can't max out a perk tree by level 4-5, but at the same time make things more logical and less of just having artificial restraints for the sake of it. The idea is that most perks would have a kind of individual requrements to advance it further.

Some examples:

Lockpicking

To rank up your lockpicking perk you need to have picked 25 locks, to allow to put it to perk ranking after that you need to have picked 65 locks, and to unlock the master perk ranking you need to have picked 100 locks.

Weapon skills

To be able to level up the Gunslinger perk you need to have killed 50 enemies with guns, to advance it further you need to have killed 150 enemies, etc etc with the other weapon skills

Ghoulish

To unock this perk you need to have had serious and prolonged radiation levels for a certain amount of time

etc etc. There is many interesting ways that skill perks could have interesting requrements like this. Also instead of the SPECIAL often locking you out of taking a certain perk, it could be more like the requirement would be much lower the higher you skill are in the area that fits the perk. So because Lockpicking is in the Perseption tree and you have 10 in perception you might only need to pick 10 locks instead of 25 to unlock the first perk level etc.

Probably this is better to put it into modding forum for level system overhaul.

You are right, can it be moved?

Best Leveling System would be S.P.E.C.I.A.L. Perk Trees without Level Requirement and without Points from 1-10. Every Level Up you can choose a Perk you want. If you want to Lockpick at Level 2 - Use it. If you want Nerd Rage at Level 2 - Use it.

I think my idea is better because it is more logical. There is no reason you should really be better at lockpick at level 2 unless you have done some lockpicking. You could just shoot dogs to level up and then increase your lockpicking and that does not make any sense.

Perhaps though, the first 3-5 or so levels would let you place perks totally freely to make the base of your character. Perhaps you character was a skilled lockpicker before the war so you could reflect that right of the bat by placing your first 3-5 flexible perk points in lockpicking.

This system of increasing skills by using them was applied in the TES series and it led to horrible grinding behaviour like standing under a bridge and jumping for 18 hours...

I don't want to have to break in to every house in Diamond City to improve my lockpicking skill, I can motivate my character's increased affinity by other means. Maybe somebody taught her, maybe she watched Nick do it, maybe she just had a natural talent that blossomed once she started having to do it herself...

Having to do repetitive things to develop my character is not fun in my opinion.

I guess we are at different minds there since I think the TES system is vastly better then in any other game. Of course you should get better at jumping if you do it a lot, if you swing a sword a lot you get better at it, if you pick a lot of locks you get better at that. Its the best and most logical system. Then if you want to "abuse" it is really up to the player. I mean if you want to stay in a place to practise for 18 hours to increase your skill that is something you can do. One thing to add to this system though that would make it even better and a bit more "balanced" is if the increase in skill decreases over time. So the first hour you practise something you increase the skill at normal rate, but after that the skill starts to increase at a much slower rate until you have let it "cool off" for a bit. So that way it would be better to practice a skill one hour a day for 18 days instead of 18 hours straight, just like in real life.

There is no more logical sense to this approach to character improvement, if I want to build muscle I would have to go to the gym regularly for months, if I want to master playing the piano it would take me 10000 hours to achieve. The mechanics in the game would not simulate this development any more realistically because I spend a couple of minutes or hours doing it in game. And there is no abuse in doing what the game mechanic encourages you to do. It would obviously be better to hack every terminal I come across, but leave the protectrons and turrets that the terminal controls active, so I can shoot them with my gun and improve my firearms skill as well. So I am rewarded for taking the dumbest possible approach to my problems, rather than using creativity to solve them and get rewarded for avoiding stupid decisions that saves me from having to shoot, bash, steal or bludgeon my way past everything.

As i said in my previous topic. Should be interesting add a new SPECIAL poster with the perks from previous games. That would be great

What you are saying is quite nonsensical and it is just false. Of course it would be even more "logical" if you actually had to train for months to increase your sword skill. But this is still a game so most people would want some kind of "shortcut".

It is the same as if I said that there is more logical and realistic with a game where there is a day and night cycle and you saying that "NO that is not more realistic becasue in real life there are 24 hours in a day, but in the game it is only 5 hours!"

Of course it would be "better" to both hack the protectrons and then use them as target practise for your gunskills. If you really want to do that to increase your skill that would be something you could do. You could as well just ignore it and save the bullets if you thought it was a stupid idea.

I mean with "your" system this is already the case, you get xp for hacking the turrets, and then you get more xp for destroying them, instead of just leaving them there. You can then use that xp to increase your lockpicking skill (make sense), so what you are saying is already using the same system for "abuse" and not rewarding doing the most "creative" or smart way to get by. In fact the current system pretty much only rewards shooting everything that moves. If you would sneak past a whole base of enemies now in a "creative" way as you call it you would "loose" a ton of xp vs a person who would go in guns blazing and you would probably level up 10 times slower. So in short it does not make any sense what you are saying.

However, the XP reward for hacking and destroying are tiny in comparison to the reward for completing the quest, so it is quite possibly more rewarding to avoid them to complete the quest faster, saving time that you can invest towards more rewarding tasks. But yes, I prefer systems that remove all XP gain from kills and only reward completion of tasks at the end, so whether you killed everyone in the base or sneaked past them, you get the same reward. I think the current system can be improved, I just don't like the development by repetition approach because it promotes and encourages a lot of uncreative behaviour.

I add to this would be that certain levels of perks would require more than one point. Want to be to go from Advanced to Master Locks? It will cost you 2 points instead of 1. From Advanced to Master? 3 instead of 2.

Galsiah's Character Development Mod for Morrowind was probably my favorite "leveling" system. It kept "levels" due to how Morrowind kept track of certain things, but you could totally ignore levels if you wanted. You'd pick your Major and Minor skills as normal, and increasing those skills by using them increased the attribute they were tied to. You gained health from a higher endurance, magicka from higher intelligence, etc. It was a very smooth, very "natural" feeling progression. You never assigned any points in some metagaming mindset, you didn't have to grind certain skills in a certain way to gain the most from each level up, etc.

Yes, you could abuse the system like you can in nearly every other game, but you really didn't gain much from it. If you power-leveled too many non-combat skills too early, your "level" would be high enough that you'd often run into encounters you were ill-equipped for, and didn't have combat skills to handle. It quite subtly guided you to let your character develop naturally over time.

I quite disliked the leveling mechanics in vanilla Morrowind, Oblivion was a disaster (mostly due to level scaling, but the leveling system was still fairly horrid), Fallout 3, FO:NV and Skyrim all have their weak points as well. Fallout 4 has a better leveling system compared to FO3 and NV in my opinion, but I really wish something similar to GCD for Morrowind was the "standard" for how Fallout and Elder Scrolls games worked.

no, i hate skill grinding in TES in a lot of way. for example if I want level armor skill in the skill trees i need to get hit a lot. for heavy armor maybe fine but for my stealth oriented stealth master it is not. also skill usage leveling almost never got it right properly. e.g. in skyrim i play as a paladin use lot of healing spell but my restoration progress extremely ridiculously slow. by the time my weapon skill reach 100 my restoration still haven't pass 50. those skill usage grinding are very painful. one command problem i got in skyrim is that often my utility skill suppressed my main skill like destruction making world enemy level too high for my magic.

personally i prefer EXP system over then skill oriented system

Max lock picking makes your bobbing pins never break, the level before that let's you pick Master locks silly.
Honestly don't see the point in leveling it anyway, most doors just have a key somewhere or are Novice locks, seems like a waste of points to me.

I'll be honest, I'd hate it if this were the case. Fallout 4 already has a lot of busywork of things you need to do in order to get to even more fun things. However, it does so in a way that diverts you from the beaten path in search of things to scavenge.

This limit you suggest feels more artificial than that and it would touch the suspense of disbelief for me. Which may seem odd, since instantly being able to use perks you didn't before doesn't seem very believable either, but I prefer not having to meet yet more arbitrary requirements in order to get to the things I want in my character.

That's just my personal preference, though. As long as it's not forced upon me, all the more power to whomever makes a mod out of this!

In my opinion just getting XP for quests is even worse and the most artificial and less dynamic system of all. That forces you into the role of being the errand boy that just does premade designed tasks for people to get a XP-reward like some sort of present at the end. One reason why I regard the ES series as a few of the only true RPG:s is that you can actually do what you want and still develop as a character. You don't need to do a single quest if you don't want, just drop into the game and go exploring and adventuring on your own, doing what you want, and you could still develop your character as much as someone who just runs from one quest to the next. It is such a superior system to these kind of games. The regular XP system is just pathetic in comparison when it comes to freedom.

I really need to check out this mod! He did not make a version for Oblivion also or other games?

We have nGCD (not Galsiah's Character Development) and Realistic Leveling, among many others, in Oblivion. I think both mods are superior to Galsiah's Chracter Development.

Both mods employ Kobu's "Great Wheel" concept. In this system each skill is associated with one primary, two secondary and two teriary attributes. The primary grants 0.6 to one attribute, secondary grants 0.2 to two attributes, and tertiary grants 0.1 to two attributes. The mod allots those amounts to the raising of six attributes (minus Luck) with each skill gain. So, for instance, a single gain in the Heavy Armor skill would raise Strength by 0.6, Speed and Endurance by 0.2 and Agility and Willpower by 0.1.

This removes the temptation to level a certain skill to get a certain attribute bonus. By leveling any one skill you will contribute a small portion to leveling all your attributes. I think this system is pure genius.

It's the most logical system thus far and makes character creation matter for a long while. Having barter and speech at 100 when you had a charisma of 1 made no sense. Granted, some of the individual perks do not makes sense where they fall - either in terms of what tree they fall in or where they are located within it - but overall, it makes so much sense. As for the level requirements, I like them - it allows you not to be a god by the time you're level 15 and actually creates compelling choices when you level sub 50.

"Take lockpicking for example where to get the max perk you need to be level 41, which in practice means that you need to kill a crapload of enemies to be able to master the skill of lockpicking" You master lockpicking from your overall experience in dealing with the world and being perceptive enough to master it. However, I agree about Lone Wanderer's placement; that should still be in the charisma tree, but at 1 instead of 3.

Changing perks to unlock as challenges is unappealing to me. It waters down your character creation in that your SPECIAL has no bearing on what you can and can't do. It's the skills mess all over again. I can also easily imagine the situation where you level your character and get a perk point to spend, only to find out that you don't qualify for anything. It'd also would be incredibly annoying to have to hunt for another lock or use a specific weapon to kill an enemy just to meet some arbitrary requirement. It's not fun and not all that immersive TBT, so just no. Period. Stop.

"but at the same time make things more logical and less of just having artificial restraints for the sake of it" If this is your concern, your idea is just trading one restraint in for another.

Now all this said, your suggestion is somewhat similar to one that I had before the game launched. Basically, the core functionality of the current system is kept, but each perk essentially doubles as a skill with its own level that increases the effectiveness of the ranks for that perk. The skill level would not have any bearing on qualifying you or not qualify you for anything - it just makes the ranks in a given perk more effective. Also, perk XP/level is separate from character XP so we avoid the whole Skyrim "let me cast cure on myself 50 times with an enemy nearby so I can level" issue.

Let's use lockpicking as an example since that's what you used:

Lockpicking - anytime you pick a lock, you gain character XP and XP towards the lockpicking skill level. The more difficult the lock, the more XP is awarded.

Rank 1: Allows the player to access Advanced locks and increases bobby pin strength by 25% (up to 50% with 100 lockpicking skill).

Rank 2: Allows the player to access Expert locks and increases lock sweet spots by 50% (up to 100% with 100 lockpicking skill).

Rank 3: Allows the player to access Master locks and gives the player a 50% chance to successfully force the lock instead (up to 100% with 100 lockpicking skill).

This would keep SPECIAL's impact and character creation highly important but also improve the character's ability in what they do often. It would also open perks up to be more diverse. For example, instead on weapon perks, like Gunsligner, having to award more damage with each rank, the ranks could be something like:

Rank 1: Pistols do 20% more damage (up to 100% with 100 Gunslinger skill)

Rank 2: Pistols have a 10% chance to disarm enemies (up to 25% with 100 Gunslinger skill)

Rank 3: Pistols have a 10% chance to use no AP in VATS for a shot (up to 25% with 100 Gunslinger skill)

Nope, I have to disagree. It's rather nice not being absolutely OP by the time I'm level 15 as well as having a compelling choice when I level - do I want better sneak or more crits? Unlock stores for my settlement or get the mysterious stranger? If they weren't there, you'd just max out sneak, weapon damage, and lockpicking/hacking first. Or maybe you would max out different skills, whatever. The point is that absolutely everyone would max out a perk first before moving on to another because it'd be a no-brainer of a choice.

You're missing the point of what SPECIAL is or what character builds are for that matter.

As some People said. Learning by Doing becomes boring hard Grind for some skills like in the Elder Scrolls Game. Especially Lockpicking is hard to Train because there is not much locked stuff.

For Perks without Level Requirement. All Perks must get ballanced and must be useful. Also you should not be able to max. all Perks.

This can do,

I think this is the best input to prolong the gameplay without tedious grinding.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

That sounds great! Why don't they have any of these great leveling systems without mods is beyond me.

Have you tried both the nGCD and Realistic Leveling? Is one better then the other? I did notice Realistic Leveling seemed more popular, but that is not always saying everything.

I don't think either one is "better." They're just different. nGCD (like its namesake, GCD) tends to favor class-based characters whereas Realistic Leveling tends to favor hybrid characters. If I want to play a pure Mage, for instance, I'm more likely to use nGCD. If I want to play a character who uses a unique mash-up of Warrior, Thief and Mage skills I tend to use Realistic Leveling.