Nice to see this thread active again.

Oddly enough they did for me.

I remember reading somewhere that someone said that they were running through the woods in werewolf form, and a hunter, or farmer turned into a werewolf and attacked them.

Fixed.

I don't know how Dawnguard changes the gameplay regarding friendly werewolves, but I expect it is the same.

Oh please, she has been too busy stalking me throughout the forums to care about you being active.

I think they did change it so that all werewolves are hostile towards you.

I really like this post for two reasons. One is the increased sophistication NPCs would have regarding their reaction to werewolves.

The second is because my thread got attention from someone new.

Where are you getting this information? Where is it stated in any lore that the Companions are actually different and don't have lunar transformations? The differences are in gameplay only, not lore. This is just another example of Gameplay/lore segregation. If such information exist feel free to prove me wrong but thus far no one has been able to.


I think that the Companions prove that Werebeast do have control over their actions if they can control their bloodlust, much like Vampires can if they choose too. This is why I think Hircine made Werebeast with an insurance policy: The need to kill. I don't think Hircine wanted anyone to have his gifts and not use it for its intended purpose so he gave them bloodlust as well as forced lunar tramsformations and if they did not give into their nature they simply perish. And I wouldn't call them monsters. They kill because they must, like humans hunt deer. I don't doubt that the Companions keep a low profile by feeding their bloodlust with bandits that they would go after anyway and avoiding random travelers. That is my theory.

I disagree with your theory that Werebeast have an alter ego or another anamalistic being living within them. I attribute their bloodlust to a dramatic increase of instincts that are already there. We all have hunting and killing instincts but for more predatory beast this is more prominent. You once based this on the cure quest in which spirit wolves erupted from the infected but I see this nothing more than a mystical metephor connected to that specific ritual and Hircines way of making you earn your life of prize. Hircine has always worked this way. In previous games with cure quest there were no spirit beast but you did have to fight and kill something. In Bloodmoon you had to kill an actual Werewolf, no inner spirit was ever seen or mentioned.

And Sinding couldn't have been in beast form. If he had been the guards would have killed him not imprisoned him or he would have managed to escape and we would have found out that he was a Werewolf from the villagers not Sinding himself who had to tell us.

I don't disagree with you. Werebeasts need to kill to survive, that's a given. The term "monster" can be attributed to the perspective people give men and women who turn to beasts. But thats all it is, a point of view. They're more animal than anything else. Intelligent, however.

How is it a metaphor if you are actually fighting the creature itself? How about the Spirit wolves the werewolf can summon to fight for them? Surely those aren't imaginary beings? It is both mystic and natural. In Bloodmoon, there is an active ability called "Spirit of the Wolf", which heals the player once he sates the beast within by killing a person. Why do you think Hircine has a claim on werewolves? The moment they contract Lycanthropy, they become something else. They are no longer human, they are part animal. As Kodlak said:

"The disease not only seeps into the body, it seeps into the spirit."

Additionally, we have a quote from Daggerfall.



Or this:



This alter ego can be their animalistic instinct, their urge to kill and to hunt. Their own bestial mind within them.


Sinding could of turned back into his human form and had been caught bloodied and mad with the girl's pieces stuck in his teeth. It is possible they caught him half naked like he was in the cell. Shirtless with underwear.

I personally thought you have pleased Hircine so much that you have earned the right to call forth fellow Werewolves from the Hunting grounds to help you.

The reason they don't take a physical form and are merely spectral/ghost form is because its not during the time of the Bloodmoon which is when all the fallen werewolves are returned to Tamriel from the Hunting Grounds in order too hunt with their master for as long as the Bloodmoon lasts. (An Example of this are the Hounds of Hircine in Morrowind's Bloodmoon..and the fact when the Bloodmoon ended all of a sudden the werewolves numbers dropped significantly which you find out about if you cure the werewolves disease when you contract it and do the "good guy" playthrough granted the werewolves side is the one I mainly did anyways that means only the actual living werewolves were allowed to stay after the Bloodmoon event the rest have to wait til the next great hunt..or Bloodmoon to return to Tamriel to feast on the flesh and blood of the living)


Then again..I believe all the perks you can obtain as a werewolf as upgrades granted to you from Hircine if you please him enough by killing and eating enough people and generally hunt in his name which goes without saying all werewolves do by instinct.

...and if you max out the werewolves perk tree you become an Alpha Werewolf or merely Hircine's greatest hound.

Might just be me though.

No, I know what. What we were discussing was if the Spirit wolves are a metaphor or actually literal.

Oh, well you fight them, you can't really say its metaphorical when you are actually cutting it with a blade.


That is like saying....

"Oh this isn't a Vampire, it may drink blood and what not and is trying to drink my blood but its merely a metaphor for the corruption in Tamriel, no such creature here.."

So I'd say literal.

Also I have to agree with W&V, it does indeed seem like werewolves have an alter-ego that compels them to want to Hunt which even Vilkas hints at even in his normal form that "I can still hear the call of the blood",

My thoughts exactly.

I think of that as more about how intoxicating and addicting the beastblood is. To me, "the call of the blood" came across more of as an urge to transform and sate the beastblood, similar to how smokers get nicotine cravings and recovering alcoholics are frequently tempted to drink again.

It seemed much less a Jekyll and Hyde thing and more of a resisting temptations ordeal.

You ripped that off from me, I have said that countless times. But you said it much better.

But wouldn't these temptations be their own . . .erh, alter egos? Or perhaps I am using alter ego's incorrectly

People usually think of alter egos as like..a voice talking to you but no one is near you.

Or people who talk to themselves and reply.

>_>

I see what you meant though.

I feel like it is implied that they do not have the transformations since for one, they got their form of Lycanthropy through magic with the Witches, rather than being bitten. Also, they make it seem like their form of werewolves are rare since the only other one like them is Arnjborn because Sinding is a regular werewolf. Also, think of it this way, The Companions live in Whiterun, that is the main city of Skyrim, the trading crossroad, so it is supposed to be busy. I doubt they could get away with having to leave Jorrvaskr every full moon to transform because somebody would catch on eventually, plus that is inconvenient for them since they are mercenaries. I believe they are a special strain of L:ycanthropy with no lunar transformations, and yes it was because of Bethesda's poor gamplay design, but they added lore in for it at least.

I consider an alter ego to be an alternate persona that someone has, either one that was created by the original personality to serve a specific purpose, or a completely separate personality within the same physical body (though this second personality must be native to this body, not an outside entity possessing it). The former is usually seen in superhero stories (for example, Batman is Bruce Wayne's alter ego, Spiderman is Peter Parker's), but can be seen in other media (such as Walter White and Heisenberg in Breaking Bad), while the second is what we see in people with dissociative personality disorder (also known as multiple/split personality disorder), which we see in characters like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, Harvey Dent and Two-Face, and most interpretations of Bruce Banner and The Hulk.

The beastform could be considered an alter ego in the truest sense (a personality completely distinct and separate from the original much like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde) if the afflicted individual had no agency over their actions when transformed, similar to how werewolves have been portrayed in various media. However, in TES, the beastform still has the humanoid personality in it, provided the individual hasn't been overwhelmed by the beastblood.

What I mean by metaphor is that the spirit wolf hasn't been lurking inside the PC and the others the whole time. They were not two seperate beings in one body. The spirit was the manifestation of the disease trying not to be cured via Hircine and that specific magical ritual. I don't think that, when infected, a beast spirit is also transferred in somehow. Does that make sense?

Also I have negative feelings on the whole summon spirit wolves and Werewolves thing. Werebeast are not supposed to be able to do magic. It would be different and better if the howl was 'calling' flesh and blood wolves and Werewolves to help out. Thankfully this seems to only be a consequence of that totem and not a canon Werebeast ability.




That is what I mean. When Werebeast transform they are still themselves but with a different set of cravings and instincts instead of two minds occupying one body.



It is never stated exactly how they recived the curse from the witches. I doubt it was from some sort of spell though that is not impossible. The Glenmoril Witches have a unique relationship with Hircine and so it is not like sorcerors are going around cursing people with Lycanthropy. And if they were why would that method of infection produce an alternate strain? Knowing Hircine and what his experience has been like in previous games it is not unfounded to consider that whatever ritual or test the Companion that began this trend had included an actual Werewolf and thus the source of the disease. There are no stated differences between Arnjborn, Sinding or the Companions nor was any lore changed or added. And I think that the fact that they are mercenaries is very convenient for their situation. They have access to prey that they would be sent to kill anyway. Werebeast are widely thought to be myths and legends and so no one is looking for them, except hunters in the know like the Silver Hand.


My thoughts exactly. Werewolves and the other Werebeast are not like the others in various other media. It has seemed to me for a while through playing and reading through several TES games that Werebeast did have control but were complelled to kill because of their Bloodlust and knowledge that they would die otherwise. I think it is similar to the Hulk transformation. They are still themselves but are bombarded with all the new heightened senses, bloodlust and energy.

Their "magic" is not regular magic at all. There is a good reason for them to do it. And it is canon, sorry to burst your bubble there.


From my understanding, they aren't even using magicka, per se, but a natural energy not made for non-Lycanthropes/werewolves. This puts a wild picture in my head; Native Americans and etc. Indigineous natives pounding on drums, blood ceremonies, shamans, etc are all mentioned in this book. They have a kinship to those that come before them. Just as how the Dragonborn can summon a hero of Sovngarde, I am willing to bet a werewolf through these ancient totems can summon one of their ancestors from the Hunting Ground to aid them. More or less like the Dunmer's ancestral spirit summon.

I know they don't go into specifics, Kodlak just says that they were given the beastblood from the Witches. I got the feeling that it was from a special ritual with magic kind of like with the ritual you go through to become a werewolf, and as a result they were given the disease without having to suffer from lunar transformations. And there is kind of a difference between Sinding, and the Companions and Arnjborn, Sinding complains about not having control, while the Companions and Arnjborn do not.

I was referring to the fact that they are not standard Werebeast abilities and are only available through the special artifacts as the quote suggest. As far as "canon" goes they are just as "canon" as Vampire wings, as in, not existing at all up to this point for some reason.



Even if it was a special ritual why do you think the result would be any different than getting bitten or scratched? They may have been given the beastblood literally in a bottle, taken from a real Werewolf. Drinking the blood of a Werebeast is one of the methods of infection and the result is no different than being bitten or scratched. The only difference between Sinding and the Companions and Arnjborn is personality. Sinding wasn't as accepting of his condition as the others were and sought to change it. Sinding had the power to transform once a day just as all other Werewolves including the PC had and that some of the Companions and Arnjborn demonstrated. They don't tramsform during the full moon due to gameplay decisions and mechanics.

I definitely agree with you that it was a poor gameplay decision because they didn't want to deal with lunar transformations, but I still think they added lore behind it and made it so that the Companions are special strain of werewolves because they got their Lycanthropy from the Glenmoril Witches, which to me means they obtained it by some magic means rather than by drinking blood, or being bitten or scratched.

Which in turn means they could be considered Pure werewolves. =D

I really hope they don't introduce "Pure Lycanthropes" unless they're something like Lycanthropes created by Hircine in the Hunting Grounds that were souls in Oblivion when they were turned to begin with, but even that's not something I'd be incredibly thrilled about. The whole "Oh, the vampires in Skyrim are all just 'Half-Bloods" and we're 'Pure-Bloods'" nonsense in Dawnguard bothers me so much (in case me making this thread wasn't a clue).