.......or they could keep the attributes out and it would continue to be the system that seems the best

What this thread is here for is to address what the devs saw as "unnecessary" in the existing attribute system, to try to understand how the proposed new system would be a improvement through totally eliminating the attributes of Strength, Speed, Agility, Endurance, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower, & Charisma & placing everything that these attributes governed under Health/Stamina/Magicka.
With no details to work with it just looks like someone decided they needed to "fix" something that wasn't broken, then say it's a great improvement/simplification.
The reality is that all the stuff that was governed by the 8 attributes still has to be processed in the game, so what was the point?
My problem with it is that in the G4 interview Todd Howard stated that all the stuff that got better by raising attributes would now be increased through Health/Stamina/Magicka, leaving the question, what improves what? And how was this a necessary change?

Using PS3 browser to post, & it's a PitA!

And how, exactly, does it "seem the best"?
Please post something substantial to make a point with facts, not opinion.
Otherwise just says it's you're opinion.

They're not superfluous at all, and perks can't be used for developing core gameplay mechanics (because they're modifiers), but I agree that the game can still be fun without attributes.


They're not too numerous and complex for categorization. There's a wealth of athletic performance research available for people who are interested, and just watching sports (boxing, mma, track & field, football, basketball, soccer, etc.) gives a basic level of awareness of the issues, if you pay attention. Participation is even better. Both absolute strength and strength to weight ratio are major factors in a lot of sports, for example. Speed is even easier and more obvious to figure out (and quickness, if you lump them together). The best athletes in most sports have a combination of specific skills and specific physical attributes, both of which are far above the norm. Often you can even see that a player who is known for certain skills has a specific related physical advantage in terms of strength, speed, quickness, etc.

Regardless, it just comes down to opinion whether realistic modeling is necessary or even important to a game. I think the forums show that at least a slight majority don't care about this aspect of realism at all. I also think that a fair number of people would be converts if you could sit them down and show them the difference in gameplay, but it always comes down to personal taste in the end.

It's not the removal of the "attributes" system that bothers me about what they've done.

That change makes complete sense. Taking attributes & they're related stats out of the hands of players would simplify things if the players skill set improvements automatically made a corresponding improvement to the attribute stats that were previously improved via the attributes.

It's the transfer/swap of player adjustable stats to a smaller number of player adjustable "attributes"(Health/Stamina/Magicka pools) that now control far more than they were originally intended to that has me worried. Heck, they're supposed to be derivatives of the attributes, not be the attributes.
I don't see how this is going to lead to anything good, it just looks broken.

"Regardless, it just comes down to opinion whether realistic modeling is necessary or even important to a game. I think the forums show that at least a slight majority don't care about this aspect of realism at all."

Out of that slight majority, the vast majority have no idea what they're even arguing for/about. They're simply trying to force convert the individuals who are actually paying close attention to what's going on and keeping in mind the recent not so great track record with the last 2 Fallout games, developed by Bethesda, that ended up full of great content, yet riddled with bugs & crippled by continual freezing/crawling. If those games could be released in such a state of QA oversight, why should I or anyone who wants a fair exchange of quality product for their money, blindly throw my cash into the wind and expect to receive such a quality product?
Before the really devoted fan hate rolls in, I don't hate Bethesda, I just want to be sure of what the end product will be before purchase.

Particularly since I'd be buying for my PS3 console, which may not receive any of the user created mods. And even if mods are made available to consoles, you can be sure they won't be free, unlike for PC.

They were in the game, but as they played it they started to think they were unnecessary, so that is why we don't have them. Everything the attributes did is still in the game on places that make more sense. imo, it's good to get a little refreshment, new vegas (made by obsidian yes i know) felt a bit old and like I've had seen it all before. That won't happen with skyrim

An idea I've been kicking around....

One of the things that's fairly regularly plunked in the middle of these attempts at discussion is the assertion that intelligence shouldn't be counted as a legitimate attribute, or at least not in the same sense as the other tradtional ones are, because, for all intents and purposes, it can't really be increased. Setting aside the fact that intelligence is arguably the one "attribute" that is most precisely measured, and to which a specific number is in fact attached in the real world (which would seem to completely demolish any claim that it's not a legitimate attribute), there is certainly something to the argument that, for all intents and purposes, it cannot be increased. It seems to me then that if intelligence was to be used to determine the size of a magicka pool, it should determine the maximum size of that pool - not necessarily the current size. That's actually entirely in keeping with the nature of intelligence, since intelligence more accurately measures potential than actual use. There are at least two questions with it though - first, how would the player establish the character's intelligence and second, how would starting and current magicka be determined?

The second is the easier - I would think the best method would be to set starting magicka by a racial base, modified by some percentage or multiple of intelligence. For example - if maximum magicka is the racial base plus 5x intelligence (I think the racial base should count all the way through, simply to distinguish races), then the starting magicka could be racial base plus 1/2 intelligence, for instance. Increases in magicka would be derived from skill increases (and maybe perks), but, aside from the ability to focus on certain skills and/or pick perks, would be entirely out of the player's control.

The first question is the one that troubles me. The simplest method to establish attributes at the start of the game is to provide either a starting set or a blank page, with the ability of the player to redistribute points but not to add any more. The problem with intelligence as I'm looking at it here is that the assigned figure would be final total rather than a starting point, which would require providing a high enough total for all perks to provide enough to raise that number as far as desired, which would make it all too easy to forego intelligence and pour all those numbers into one of the starting figures - strength, for instance. And that would be pretty much instant-uber. So intelligence would seem to have to be discrete from the other, increaseable attributes, but then I see no way to limit the amount that might be applied to it, which means that one could and at least many probably would just slap 100 intelligence on every character. In order for it to function well and be balanced, it has to be a trade-off, but I've yet to come up with a method to make it such.

Just a thing over which I've been mulling.....

The best character stat systems are in sports games. Here, some screenshots from my favorite sports game. You wouldn't believe their success, recognizing players just from their playstyle which is only a stat system.

Abilities(All stats available, skills&attributes)
http://i.imgur.com/xhTPv.png

Perks
http://i.imgur.com/JG6BH.png

Attributes
http://i.imgur.com/RFFCU.png

Notice how more than half of the attributes weren't anywhere else. Technique, Speed, Power, Stamina.... Attributes are being calculated from abilities and perks, they are for viewing pleasure only. Their functionality is in other places.

All critical strikes and increase success perks can add up to establish LUCK. If there are 20 of them then we get LUCK back. 1-20.

All increased damage perks can add up to establish Strength.

Slow time perks and related perks(I can't think of possible ones but there are 280 of them, I'm sure Beth thought them for us) can be used for Agility.

Off course I would like to see attributes even if they are just for viewing pleasure in Skyrim. Probably, I will use an attribute calculator mod.

Actually, no, I don't. Group think in organizations is very commonplace. All you need is one person higher up with an "Attributes Must Go!" mentality and it is possible that the rest will meekly fall in line or just do what the boss tells them to do, regardless of the logic or intelligence behind the sentiments of the one leading the effort.

From a systems standpoint it makes no sense to gut the attributes system. From my (albiet non-game developer) standpoint it looks like to me that this poor decision is the reason why skills are being cut rather than expanded. Without the base character value expressed within an attributes system (and very poorly represented in the health meters and perks) there is no simple way left to organize the expression of skills together. You are left not only developing a skill, but then you have to develop a dozen perks to go along with it and then manually work in the interactions between skills, much of which you would be doing is expressing the mechanics the attributes could have done hands off (with an attributes system). Then have to shoehorn things together (blades, mysticism...) so you can bundle the perks required to govern them in order to save time.

Everything I have heard so far points to this direction. They made a turd with regards to character development and are ignoring the fact or are trying to put the best face to it. The 4-6 characters that jump into every thread that mentions attributes in order to repeatedly state that attributes: are not gone, perks are better, h/m/s!, redundant, etc and the other talking points makes me suspect the latter.

-----------------------------------

Back to the OP!

Your suggestions are good but I would much rather see something more behind the scenes. In fact, I would enjoy seeing the attributes meters taken out of the character menu. Let's make restoration into a craft. Where you have to go to someone skilled in restoration for them to "read" your vitals in order for you to know where you are at or if one of your attributes have been damaged. (and look! Reading vitals. Smells like a perk for the restoration skill!)

Attributes should be things that slowly tick up and down behind the scenes irregardless of level. No more +1, +3, +5's at level up. No perkolator for "Strong Back".... There should be no limit to how high an attribute can go, but the scale should be non-linear so that increases in attributes become harder the higher you get.

Try making a contribution to the discussion as opposed to just saying there's no chance for change. Even if you are right about the game being past the point in the dev cycle for change to take place (which it could be delayed for changes and every fan nut would still buy it anyways), there's alot of console gamers that have been looking forward to this game who won't be able to rely on mods making it better if the new character development system turns out to be a gimmicky bust.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this already... but you could have all of the attribute effects be applied based on your maximum capacity for health/magicka/stamina.

More magicka with regeneration based on a % of your maximum magicak you will regen more as you increase your total.

Encumberance and damage based on max stamina so that as you gain stamina you gain damage and encumbrance? See how [censored] simple that is.

Increasing health does just that and could decrease stagger chance based on your maximum health. You would be sturdier!


wait... did I just show you how attributes were superfluous?

EDIT: I get it, people are stuck on the notion of values derived from your maximum capacity and NOT THE CURRENT VALUE. There can be status effects that raise and lower your maximum capacity as well as the specific trait like encumbrance.

Read the OP, this is a discussion about implementing the attributes back in, not whether they were superfluous or not.

they got rid of the attributes and class system because they didn't want you to have to pick who your character had to be in the beginning of the game

You are probably one of the most sixiest New comers to the forums I have ever seen, not Baised, recognizes both arguments, gave own thoughts, didnt attack anyone else for thinking other wise have a http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r105/Enoil/DarkFishyStick.jpg

Don't listen to these people blubbering about how its too late for change, I already gave an example of game changes in this year alone a few pages back, but it was conviently skipped over have a


Dual wielding wasnt in the original game, it was as stated by Todd "late" in developement.

Horses aren't finished, and if it comes to push, won't be in game.

Raidiant Story was used to connect existing dialoge for all the side quests, they changed it and now all quests are hand made.

Spell combo's werent possible 4 months ago, they are testing that now.


These aspects effect the ENTIRE GAME,...so I don't see whats so hard in Attributes if they decide to change it.

Well seeing as this entire thread ISNT about opinions or ISNT near complete speculation or suggestions and the fact that you yourself have obviously included nothing but facts... ill back it up with what Tod said, and what makes the most sense to him, Bethesda, and me. The attributes created either totally rediculous situations, annoyances, or used only to augment fatigue, health, and magika. Ive said it before, but seeing as there is always a couple people who actually think an arguement is to be made here, ill break down each atrribute.

Speed, made you run fast, rediculously fast, so fast the game became laughable. Skyrim will probably pull a Fallout, set speed, you go slower in heavier armour. Better option to use

Luck, pointless, affected about 6 things that wernt huge to begin with, then it just raised other stats.

Strength, damage (taken over by perks and skills) amount one can carry, taken over most likely by perks.

Endurance, Health Stamina thats it. Taken care of

Agility, Bow damage, taken over by perks and skills

Willpower/Intelligence, Raise and regenerate magika, taken care of and perks will most likely be used to assist in both catagories.

Everyone goes bananas over attributes, when if one takes a step back and actually looks at it, they wernt so great. Made leveling a calculated decision, once raised too high things turned to the rediculous side, and all the important things they did are now taken care of by simply Health, Magika, and Stamina. The new system does seem to be the best, and those are my facts, not that I needed them seeing as this thread and nearly 98% of all posts here are COMPLETE opinion, speculation, or ideas for "improvement" that wont happen in Skyrim.

Luck is definitely not pointless, especially since you can beef it up and have it effect everything like NV did. but this isn't what this thread is about. Either propose a way to reintroduce attributes or dont post. This is not a attributes VS perks thread etc.

Hell yesssh Winning Eleven/Pro Evolution Soccer! (note: I'm not even a fan of sports games in general, except this one and Football Manager).

edit: I'd fancy to have a similar attributes calculation gauge system for Skyrim, actually.

Charisma based skills & effects like Speechcraft & Mercantile are not covered in that listing.

If I like a character that is based on speed (and yes, this is the character that I play), fast swordplay combined with escapability when it all goes wrong, how is taking that away a better option? It was so cool in Ob to sprint through the gates, and not that easy. You could get yourself cornered, you take damage along the way, etc. It took skill and thought to play the character and that made it fun. Rebalancing speed a bit might not be so bad, but taking it away completely? How is that better?

Need to edit this because it sounds too whiny - fact is that I have no idea what they are doing and it might be great. However, posts like this which essentially say "it's not important to me so it shouldn't be important to you" sort of drive menuts and result in the gradual neutering of the game.

I doubt the idea of speed will be removed completely. There are 280 perks, one can only choose around 50 a game. That many perks means they have a HUGE range of things theyll affect. Speed in Oblivion made it the easiest game of all time, got hit about twice in my elven archer game. Itll just be mroe realistic in Skyrim I think, Tod has said the EVERYTHING attributes did is still in the game, just in a more effective manner.

@Rogue Mage, I'll have to anolyze your ideas and see if they are an improvement. Some of what you've suggest may be good but I'll have to look at them in detail.

edited- I read the ideas and they are interesting but I don't know if I would go with them. It certainly would be interesting if the 8 attributes were reduced to 4 however I would need to come up with a new formula as the 20-50 system wouldn't work right with 4-5 attributes.



I'm not sure if attributes can be something that you could hide and under this system you won't have have a random number for Attributes it's +5 for an attribute every 5 levels. I may suggest and add the idea of having something like the Intense Training Perk for the OP but only be able to use it twice.



I have to agree luck can be a factor. It wasn't much of one in Oblivion but Fallout 3 made it work. I originally was going to go with a Fallout 3 similar effect but then that would interfere on skills so I went with Higher odds of finding Rarer Items.

First off, I see the potential for with and without attributes and have considered that it's possible that attributes could have worked in time. It's also possible Bethesda decided that reworking them would take more time to fix than it would to improve the systems that they benefited and ultimately deemed them unneccisary. As you've stated above, they test and try everything and I'm sure they gave attributes a fighting chance before throwing them away.

My thought is that attributes didn't work for a reason and BGS ultimately made their decision. Whether that reason is because of perks, racial abilities or some other system we don't know about remains to be seen. From what I've heard I'm with Sleign and fall into the "cautiously optimistic" category.