It could be modded in with no problems but I'm a console player.

Well then, I guess your SOL then because there's no way that Bethesda is going to put attributes back in at this point. It's a done deal.

Neither are attributes. Attributes only place numbers on these elements. The attribute doesn't need to be there for your character to be "stronger" or "faster". And a character is only as intelligent as his player.

I wouldn't give myself a Strength score in real life. I only know what I can lift and what I can't. I don't assign myself a Speed score, I only know how fast I run. It's the same way with "status bars" as you call them. I know that if I lose X amount of blood I'll probably die. I know I can run for X minutes at a normal pace. I know about how long I can study in one sitting before I start hitting my head against the wall. Ironically one of the oddest "attributes", Intelligence, is one of the only ones we tend to score.

Just because "status bars" have a more concrete effect on character performance doesn't make them any less attributes. The old attributes are traits of personality and fitness, and should be free for the roleplayer to invent anyway. Assigning numbers to them which reflect actual character performance (in ways that don't even make sense some of the time, like Intelligence and Luck) really only limits roleplaying. By making "status bars" the focus of character development, alongside perks, "attributes" in the old sense are detached from character personality. In that way, the new attributes are better attributes than the old ones.

There's still some time that it could be changed but with E3 coming up in two months I'm not optimsitic. We'll see what happens, I posted the idea and if it's at least a thought and possibly considered then that's all I can ask for.

May be able to mod them back in. I think Omega made a thread about that. I think they should have kept the attributes and made them matter even more.

How would you mod them in?

using something like the OBSE for Skyrim?

Omg are we gonna have this debate again? It's a little too late to start making fundamental changes to the game by now, and yes the change would be fundamental. Besides, you don't even know how the new system works so you're being kinda hilarious now.

Also, what makes you think that the devs haven't already discussed your exact idea and a hundred others during development? Just forget about it, the idea is futile.

My system wouldn't have much difficulty being modded in. All you would need to do is get rid of the attribute type perks so that Attributes would replace them. You might also need to change the Health and Magicka numbers that you get per level, The number might need to be reduced so that it's equal or a little less. The only difficulty I see is luck and if that's too difficult to implement then ignore it and just go with 7.

Oblivions's Attribute system good luck with that one as that's going to be a lot harder to mod, although that's a different discusion for a different time.

Something has to handle damage variables.....otherwise a orc and a woodelf, would hit the same amount of damage, at level 1 no perks.

Something has to handle speed...or else a ice wraith would move as fast as a wolf which would also can be matched in speed by a player...at level 1.

Something Must govern Damage resistances...otherwise each of the 10 races would take the same amount of damage from each other at level 1.


So...some of us intend to exploit that.

Dual wielding wasn't even in the game until fairly recently....RIDING HORSES aren't even in the game, yet.

SPELL COMBINAITONS wasn't even in the game 4 months ago and now they are experimenting with that even showed that some interviewers.


So yeah its wwwwwwaaaaaay to late to implement attributes, Woe that thought!.

Those unfortunately are going to be implemented with Perks. Hence why I proposed my system. :biggrin:

Although different races may have different starting stats including resistance and possibly speed, we will have to wait and see on that one.

Skills and perks handle this, races come with skill bonuses. Stamina could also potentially increase damage, because damage done is nothing more than the speed and momentum of an impact.


You don't need stats to handle speed differences, that's just an animation parameter.


No you don't, you just need damage resistance and an combat equation that uses it.

If I understand correctly from the article where Todd mentions the racial abilities of Orcs as being different from Wood Elves,, there will be certain Racial Abilities/Perks that start with character creation, at the moment when you choose the race, similar to Greater Powers.

I believe you are correct. I'd be disappointed if a Redguard didn't have Adrealine Rush, Orcs with Berserk, Imperials with Voice Of The Emperor, etc.

Wow, so you guys are still talking about the SAME EXACT STUFF FROM A MONTH AGO. Literally had these arguments nonstop without changing anything.

Oh yeah, and for those of you complaining, you're also complaining when you know 5% of a feature. Have some optimism that Bethesda is going to make it work. They say attributes are in the game, just trickled down, try believing them for now.

This is not the same argument. This is about my idea of trying to get attributes into the game without making them more important then Perks.

are you forgetting this is a game right? the thing is brimming with numbers...even your H/M/S and skills are RULED by numbers, and by players intelligence this isnt personified by Perks or H/M/S, its all fine and well to believe your character is smart etc etc, if you desire to roleplay to that extent thats all you, but the game doesn't recognize your perceptions, only the character in the game unless you want to get into Fourth wall business here. this isnt even about roleplay because last I was told, you can roleplay without numbers, so why are numbers all of a sudden a hinderance? when your roleplaying what -you- believe?

Again, its a game, not Real life, GAMES can scorre how strong or weak or intelligent your CHARACTER is in the game, the roleplay stance works both ways, You van roleplay without numbers, so why do numbers inhibit roleplay. don't make this seem like Im advocating the old system, or bashing perks, Im saying H/M/S only personifies H/M/S and until a DEV tells me otherwise that Strenght, Speed, Intelligence, Endurance and all of the many other aspects that define my character without me needed to Fill a greater Gap that missing attributes create,then I'll take the "you don't know what the game is like but this is what perks do" with a grain of salt.

My Characters strenght is so and so - Then I can give a reason why.

Not My Character....-Looks- strong but doesn't do more damage despite working on himself because he needs a Perk to tell him to do so.

Again, the thread is about Ideas, Not Perks V Attributes or whatever. if you have Ideas pertaining to the thread by all means go for it.

"A character is only as intelligent as his player." Not true. There are so many ways this could be represented. As a short example, let's say you play a barbarian with low intelligence. You get asked a hostile question. The only response you character is allowed to make is "Die you son of a dog!" If he's got REALLY low intelligence, the player may not even have the option of staying silent, and the character will automatically respond that way. If you played a smarter character, or a character with better Speechcraft, you would be given more options, and a REALLY smart character would even inform the player what response would yield what result. (Yes, Speechcraft is a skill which in some cases would negate the need for Intelligence...but the Intelligence (and Personality) of your character would determine how high their Speechcraft could be. That's the relation between Skills and Attributes, and frankly, I can't imagine an in-depth RPG without it.

As far as assigning arbitrary numbers, your "strength score" is how many pounds you can lift in any given exercise, your "Speed score" is how fast you run a mile in a minute. While they are compressed into a scale of 1-100 for the purpose of the game, they represent traits which certainly can be quantified specifically. And as you said yourself, we measure Intelligence with IQ scores, SATs, etc. Those are probably the least accurate tests, like using benchpress as the only metric of strength, but they give a general idea.

Of course Beth has already made their decision, and most people are fine with it. And I'm sure they did a great job of making a fun RPG without it. However, I really cannot imagine a mature, complex, and in-depth game without attributes. Not quantifying those numbers really limits what you can do, or at least how you can do it. For example, many people want to be able to drag bodies. We probably can't, which is it's own issue, but if we can, would it make sense for a rail-thin Wood Elf to drag the body of an armored Orc as deftly as if the situation were reversed? And would a "Corpse Disposer" perk really fill that gap? How long before the Perk system (which is GREAT for SOME aspects) becomes more cluttered and obtuse than an Attributes system?

Once they may low intellect characters unable to read a book or map and low strength characters unable to lift a weapon then they can put attributes back in

Adding attributes back in now would be like strapping a teddy bear to the grill of a dump truck. Sure it looks cute but it serves no purpose for the day to day operations other than saying "hey look what i did here".

I think that the odds of my system being put in place is not good although I thought at least that I should attempt it even if it's just an idea.

The reason why I say the odds aren't good is that E3 is exactly 6 weeks away and I'm not sure how much of Skyrim will be shown at the event or what Factions will be shown at the event and I know that Beth will want to highlight certain stuff in their game and focus on X feature (Probably more Dragons which is good). Focusing on putting my system or even a system of attributes in will take time not that long but it may deter Beth from focusing on other features that they may want to show off at E3. We will have to wait and see.

Dual wielding, Spell combos, Horse riding, and a myriad of other features that were not and or, currently are not in game have made it or are under away. I don't see why yours is anyless of a chance on its own.


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Aye I've made countless responses, either I get the Drum line Its a Natural evolution, or a better system, or Attributes are redundant and spreadsheety, all things Todd says people regurgitate at me like I don't have ears, then Im told I don't know how the system works because I haven't played the game, WHILE at the same time being told Perks do this and that.

I'm sorry did I miss a gameplay teaser or something?

I keep Saying how H/M/S aren't even Attributes, they are Status bars just like all the other games, there are no intricate mechanics behind them, even less so now that Attributes are gone. I don't even bash perks, the ideas of perks is fine

How do I know this?

Well, since they said that they did originally have attributes in Skyrim, they could be modded in. And obviously with mods, you can make them matter even more.

if its in there somewhere, then Bewm, excellent mod it up and get some sixyness going, Mods like DR effected every NPC, I can't see why something like Attributes cannot be applied in the same way, and maybe, just maybe, if Consoles gets mods, I'll be the first to PM Terror about the mod.


thats if he still wants it of course and is not satisfied with the original system.

That's kinda what I have been trying to avoid by putting that line in the 1st paragraph. I want this to be about my idea on attributes not about, well perks are better or are attributes better.

They could put Attributes in time for E3 but well we'll have to wait and see.

I might mod it in if the 360 has that capability but I would have to see how the new system works before doing it.

Status bars and attributes are the same thing in this instance.

The only real difference is that they aren't using your health/magicka/stamina attributes to derive something else, then again the original attributes only really effected these in the first place (with some exclusions)