What I wanted to know about your Idea is how will it handle negetives, ever had the experience where you lost all your fatiuge? or you get a damage fatigue spell. how will your system avoid leaving the player a husk on the ground to get pounded on?


Will your system effect reaction times? does it grow organically? what would be the Ideal level by level basis for you? what if I don't do spells? or anything "intelligent" will my character stay dumb?

What about the Jail system, Do i lose stats over time? would you make attributes a factor to unlock perks as well?

Intelligence does not necessarily affect speechcraft. That's why there's a skill for it. I'm an intelligent person, but half the time in a face-to-face conversation things like "Die you son of a dog" is all I can come up with. I've known many people who can create rousing speeches but wouldn't know how to tie their shoe without Youtube how-to videos.


I don't know what I bench press. I also know that being able to bench press more doesn't necessarily mean I could punch harder than someone else. It's a different kind of strength. Speed is obviously distance over time, I can't refute that (nor would I want to), but a typical person won't assign a number to themselves and say "That's how fast I am". They might know their fastest time if they play sports.

I guess if I want to generalize my point, the things attributes govern don't need numeric representations, because the things they govern are not static and one-dimensional.


I make no connection between attributes and "mature" or "complex". The perk system is, in pretty much every way, more "complex". Were they to fix Oblivion's attribute system, it would be more "complex". I don't see what's mature or complex about increasing a number to make a character perform marginally better. Skills and perks do the same thing, just with fewer numbers between the game's variables and the player.

In response to Omega's first sentence above yours: Yes, I know the game is based on numbers. You might have realized that if you read my post. Attributes are only a representation of changes to the game's lower level variables. Those same variables can (and will) be changed without the old attributes. You are bemoaning the difference between two book covers, when the contents read the same.

Sinister Raven shows exactly WHY Attributes are a good thing. Necessary? No, but neither is magic, or dragons, or 10 races. It just makes a better game. Puts the "R" back in "RPG."


@Frodo

Intelligence does not necessarily affect speechcraft. That's why there's a skill for it. I'm an intelligent person, but half the time in a face-to-face conversation things like "Die you son of a dog" is all I can come up with. I've known many people who can create rousing speeches but wouldn't know how to tie their shoe without Youtube how-to videos.

That's why I mentioned that it's a mix of Intelligence, Speechcraft, and Personality. Take certain politicians, for instance. Sometimes they can give a great speech, and other times sound painfully dumb. Only someone with "100" in all those categories would be a great speaker all of the time.

I don't know what I bench press. I also know that being able to bench press more doesn't necessarily mean I could punch harder than someone else. It's a different kind of strength. Speed is obviously distance over time, I can't refute that (nor would I want to), but a typical person won't assign a number to themselves and say "That's how fast I am". They might know their fastest time if they play sports.

You don't know it, but there is a specific number based on your muscle mass, energy level, and a multitude of other factors. So even if your character is not allowed to "see" those numbers, they certainly exist. I would actually prefer that system than the traditional one, because it is silly, as well as having "hard" levels, where for instance you have to be Strength 55 to use UberAxe, rather than being able to use it at 25, just very poorly. And while your bench press doesn't determine your overall strength, it is a factor that can be measured somewhat precisely, along with the force of every other muscle.

I make no connection between attributes and "mature" or "complex". The perk system is, in pretty much every way, more "complex". Were they to fix Oblivion's attribute system, it would be more "complex". I don't see what's mature or complex about increasing a number to make a character perform marginally better. Skills and perks do the same thing, just with fewer numbers between the game's variables and the player. You are bemoaning the difference between two book covers, when the contents read the same.

Well, let's ditch "mature," and stick with "complex," although by default they are very similar (think plot of a children's movie vs. that of an R-rated film...some of the time) The reason Attributes make a game more complex is because they allow that interplay of factors. A master fencer could easily be killed by a dumb lug with a two-handed sword, and vice versa. It's only when Skills, Attributes, Perks are combined that you get a game which gives you different outcomes for different characters, which should be the core tenant of a role-playing game. And as I said, the perk system is great, for some aspects of gameplay. But perks are one of those "hard level" systems, it's yes or no. You don't think it's funny that as soon as I learn the "mace" perk, I instantaneously negate armor 100%? While a warrior skilled with a weapon does use it more effectively, I have to imagine that much of that effectiveness is the weapon itself. Shouldn't I negate armor 10% at first, when my skill is low, and slowly increase until I've mastered where and how to strike?

Negatives, the only thing that would be negative is that your weak when you start off. It's basically the same thing that beth's going right now with the current system that they are using, it's just I'm adding in extra factors and it also clarify's encumberence. This system actually has more choices because you won't be able to max all of your attributes you'll only be able to max 2 maybe 3 and you might be able to get 4 but you'll probably hit the level cap at that point.

I did this in Oblivion with a self imposed level cap of 25. I think you should add attribute checks in as well.

Now that is something that I haven't thought of with this current system. Although only 5 points for 1 attribute every 5 levels would be hard. The only way I could see it work is if there are certain instances where you would need a check of 30, 35, 40, 45 or 50 but only in a limited amount of situations.

Ok, you put attributes back in.

Now you need to change everything they effect....

...you need to change all the skills, so that attributes have some effect on them
...do they get added to every level? If so, you need to change how levelup occurs. And what determines how much they get added to? Another thing that may effect other systems
...what attributes do the NPCs and monsters have? And how do they alter with level scaling? Okay, need to change all the leveled lists and monsters.
...what effect do they have on combat? More defense, more damage, more ______?

And now that you've made all those changes, next we need to rebalance all the items - with new combat calculations, how has it effected damage & defense values for the weapons and armor. Oh, and tweak all the hitpoint calculations for every entity in the game as well.

Oh, right - an rebalance all the perks & remove ones that might now be "redundant".

edit: ah, almost forgot - quests, dialogue, and guilds would probably have a number of changes as well, if you actually want the attributes to have a real effect on "RP" things.

Yep, adding attributes back into a system built without them won't be much effort at all. I'm sure that if Beth doesn't put them back in for you, some modder can just toss right out....

I wasn't really proposing the level cap idea, just the "attribute checks in dialogue, or to access certain content etc" idea.

I think the d20 system is a pretty classic way to use attributes, but it is a class based system rather than a skill based system.

did I mention they have a Spellcombo feature in that wasn't in 4 months ago in an established system of which all NPC's that use spells can be effected and potentially utlize?

same with Dual wielding btw :teehee: looks like the turned the game upside down and effected swaths of aspects in the game with these two features alone :teehee:

No I understood what you were saying. I like the idea of Attribute checks in Dialoge but only in certain circumstances. The level cap is fine as it is which will be probably in the 70's which is fine with the attributes. Only 2 will reach 50 you might be able to get a 3rd one up to 50 and it's certainly possible for a 4th one but very unlikely as you'll hit the cap.

why not make it harder to raise like skills already in Skyrim instead of a cap? so that the only cap is the players patience/perciverance of course I don't neccesarily believe in getting stronger and stronger indefinently, I'd submit a more sea-saw like system where your focus in one set of attributes leaves the others diminishing ...slightly especially in long wait situations like jails

What do you think about intelligence effecting how descriptive/well written your journal is? I'll give you an idea of a non dialogue check, say you have temple and church quests again. You could have their accessibility determined by willpower etc.

waaaaaaaaaaaaay to many Variables lol....that requires something organic to actively effect the prewritten Journals....but the idea is sixy.

It would be too much to write. You'd need at least five or six different 'writings' for every in game journal entry. Just brainstorming.

Nah I think the current system will be fine as it is and I don't want all the attributes getting up to 100



Intelligence I'm thinking should only do Magicka or Reducing the amount of magicka that a spell costs because since your smarter you'll be able to use the spell easier. The Magicka attribute or leveling skill (Whatever it's called) already affects magicka so I don't see the need to repeat. Like the Destruction skill should increase the magic damage that you do with say fireballs but the Higher your Intelligence the lower the cost of the fireball because you've gotten good at launching the fireball spell.

Willpower doesn't fit that shoe better? I figured Willpower would dictate how well your character is able to dip in the Magicka Reserves for spells as well as spell casting efficiency, I never really got why Being smarter meant more Magicka to use.....Knowledge is power?






well.....


Raidiant Story already alters things based on you....I don't know if it does Dialog, and Im pretty sure I've seen Todd say it was not....but couldnt RS be used to effect Journal entries? like omit certain details at the very least to at the very worst make some incomprehensible mess with mispelling everywhere

I'm glad that someone who wanted the attributes to stay in at least even showed they have attempted to think up a way other than just "They should just fix it." Tip of the hat to you Terror.

However, I have to object unfortunately. These attribute changes are just the old attributes with the bonuses to H/M/S, which still leaves the fundamental problem of not being able to coexist with the new system because your doubling up on abilities. Todd has already said that ALL of the effects of the old attributes are still in the game. So, they are passive effects now and having the old attributes do their same effects only perpetuates bonuses and makes them prime candidates for going out of control. Mainly you have to think of it like this, when the new system came on, it took the old attributes functions, so that leaves the old attributes with no function, they are just 8 words. If people really want to just keep those 8 words, they have to think of a completely new system that actually is useful and those people should be those on the forum that really want the 8 words to stay and not the devs as they are already busy making the game and don't have time to think of a brand new system they didn't really need or plan on needing and maybe they will put it in the next game if you guys come up with a completely different system.

Mainly, I personally don't see the issue with removing attributes. We didn't lose any customization, we gained customization with 3 attributes and 280 perks. We didn't lose any of their function as their increases in H/M/S (fatigue) are still in the game and all their secondary abilities are supposedly still in the game as well. Really the only thing we lost were the 8 names of the old attributes. We've seen a great decline in the usefulness of attributes since after Daggerfall. Maybe it was because we moved to a 3D world and the technology increased or maybe it was because we moved more of the power into skills (or most likely, both those). However, the usefulness of attributes fell out of favor, you barely felt their effect on the game. I know some people feel that they have lost control over the customization of their character but I've been trying to show people they haven't lost any at all. When you level up, you still choose your attribute and now you also choose a perk. You have more direct control over your attributes then you did in the old games. Instead of seeing your attribute go up by 5 like intelligence, you'll see your magicka go up by 50 (just a guess, not saying that's how much it will go up). Direct control is finally in our hands and we have the most customization we have since Daggerfall, that's what people always like, I would think people would be ecstatic.

Also, for those that think you need attributes to define your characters characteristics, that was what they were meant to do. Your character is as intelligent as you choose to decide they are. Your character is as strong as you decide to make it when you choose the body type at character creation in Skyrim. Your characters personality is how you decide to make it (a number really didn't decide what kind of personality your character had anyway) and also we still have speechcraft. See, you don't need labels to decide what your character is like, it's up to you and how YOU want to make it.

That's basically what I was talking about. The more intelligent, the easier it is to tell what you have to do. Because all of your journal entries are basically based on things you see, hear, or decipher. You could even have map and quest markers be effected, if they are in this hypothetical 'mod'.

Well said.


Sure if the "R" stands for Roll. I don't need numbers to feel like I'm playing a "R"ole. The only validation for the attribute argument is based on the assumption that Bethesda took functionality out of game from behind the scenes formulas and until there is definitive proof of the contrary I'm going to give Beth the benefit of the doubt and assume it's still there as Todd told me it was.

If you don't believe in Todd and Bethesda then that is a personal problem your going to have to deal with on your own because it's not our(those that do believe) job to convince you. It's not like any of you are listening anyway so what's the point of going on and on and back and forth about it.

1st your welcome, I thought of this idea earlier in the day and I wanted at least to try to find a compromise where the Attributes would be able to coexist with the perks but not be as bad as they were in Oblivion. I think Strength is pretty clear under this system as it affects encumberence. I wanted to avoid weapon damage because I want the skill/perks to deal with that. Endurance is the weakest stat and I know with more time I could think of a better reason then adding more of a modifer to health. I want perks under this system to be more important then attributes but attributes will still have their role and with it being every 5 levels that you get a +5 attribute point they will have a purpose. I did the 5 levels because if I did every level then it's just oblivion 2 with perks and I want to avoid that and also I don't want all the attributes getting to 100 as then every character would be the same. Under this system you'll be lucky if you get 3 attributes up to 50 by the high level cap.

Well, since the very roots of a game like the Elder Scrolls is based on pen and paper RPGs and some dice, "roll" should not be a dirty word. The poor translation of that system for combat in Morrowind turned some people off, but that just means it needs to be tweaked, not thrown out. Like replacing your engine when you have a bad spark plug.

I don't blindingly trust Todd and Bethesda. Obviously, his company, their game, their choice. But I certainly have a right to disagree, and even if you trust Todd on this issue, surely there must be a few thing that they could have done better? Nobody's perfect. And it's not that we're not listening to you, it's that we are not convinced. In fact, we are tying to convince you just as much as you try to convince us. The point of going on and on about it is that...well...we are on a discussion forum, aren't we? And if you don't care enough about the topic to continue the discussion, maybe we have a point, unless you feel that Attributes would actually make the game worse, and not just that the game can function without them, which is true of every other item of content, including Dragons, Magic, Combat, Stealth, etc.

Your skill in a magic school has reduces spell cost already in Oblivion and Daggerfall! Why would you want Intelligence to do that too?

Well having them as a third party system is interesting and could work out but the issue I see is they basically have the same effect they used to have, which is still in the game already. Like I said, I can't think up a system myself (to be fair I'm not really spending a lot of time thinking about it) but the only problem with using the same effects they had before is that they just double up on bonuses in your character and become unbalanced. The every 5 levels is interesting though, I like the idea of that but I just think the effects of each attribute could be changed up a bit. If you can think up radically different effects than they had before with that system of yours, I could get behind it.

That is true although if you have more intelligence in something like after you've read a book on say launching fireballs, you'll have a better understanding of how a fireball launches out of your hand or the degree of the heat within the Fireball thus lowering the fireballs cost. I don't know if skills will lower the MP cost of a spell, I hope it does and Intelligence would also further increase it although I'm thinking only magic characters will pick intelligence in this system because of the 5 levels in betweening picking a +5 in an attribute.