My god, just when you thought Todd couldn't get any sixier........he sits in front of a fireplace.....

WHAT!? very underwhelming?! What games are you playing? I almost feel sorry for you, http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Games/E/Elder%20Scrolls%20V%20Skyrim/Bulk%20Viewers/PC%20360%20PS3/2011-04-18/OrcNight01--screenshot_viewer_medium.jpg http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/116/1162158/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-20110415033047799.jpg look great to me!

So, just cut them because they aren't completely NEEDED?

Well, we don't NEED grass. That's not necessary to game combat. Cut that! AI schedules? That just svcks up resources, cut that too. We just need enough AI for people to fight us when they don't like us. Oh, you want to be able to run faster? Nope. Everyone runs the same speed, unless you get this special perk!

It sounds silly, doesn't it? If you make the argument that they aren't necessary to a certain aspect of the game, then you can start removing a hell of a lot. Some people might like to be able to jump high over obstacles, others might like to be able to run faster without having to worry about some perk. What is this, Call of Duty?

I'd say a good amount of people also like the idea of attributes, they allow you to choose a pool of skills most useful to you. How can we improve those? Look at FO: New Vegas. Your attributes actually meant something in that game. You couldn't do certain things if your attributes weren't high enough. Same with skills, too. There is room for improvement on both, and the flaws that some people see aren't reason to completely remove them. That's just lazy.

You don't have to pigeon hole people into not being able to go certain places because their skills aren't high enough, but you can make it more difficult to go about a task in an alternative way. These are improvements that COULD have been made, but instead they just took them out completely.

Yup, oh and they are xbox. Everything released so far has been.

Yeah, 512MB of RAM generally doesn't lead to anything very impressive.

Attributes gone isn't a big deal and it's a good thing. Athletics and Acrobatics needed to be removed too much random leveling. You'll still be able to jump just at a set height like in Fallout 3. It's for the better, perks will pretty much replace attributes and that was one of the bigger problems with Oblivion was the Attributes. You basically needed to write down ok Blade went up 7 points, Blunt went up 1 point that means 4 points of strength at level up. It's very Confusing and too much time consumtion when we could be focused on other things like killing Dragons.

Perks are all about specialization. I think you're the one that doesn't want to understand. It's obvious what you're trying to do here, but you're not going to fool me.

That was the intent.

No separate VRAM. It's common to have at least 2GB of system memory AND at least 512MB of video memory. So 2.5GB of an average PC vs. the 360's 512MB.

Uh, yeah. Perks are about specialization. That's what I said. :unsure2:

You just pretty much said why this is being done in the first place. You aren't SUPPOSED to have 100 in every attribute/skill this time around, you aren't supposed to be able to have your character completely maxed. This time around, your choices in evolving your character will actually mean something instead of "Oh, I missed out on leveling willpower. I know! I'll spam Summon Skeleton on myself for an hour! Fun!"

You obviously missed the entire point. Not to cut them because they arent needed, but because they take away from immersion. If you want to jump from one roof to the other from 50 ft away (because otherwise it would be fairly easy to jump on house rooves that are adjacent to eachother) then download a mod. Thats what mods are for, to add personal touches to vanilla game, either to exaggerrate it, or add something that has no meaningful place in the scheme of gameplay. Also the attributes that you worshipped in previous elder scrolls installments held no water AT ALL. They are virtually a window, in that it says the attribute gains in points, but the only thing it effects is the things that you see through it, not the actuall attribute. You are literally staring at the glass of the window, and not looking through it like any other.

Not only this, but all the previews have stated this is a huge leap graphically over Oblivion.

Oh friggin' wonderful, here come the realism arguments. I expect Bethesda will be removing all magic skills too then because magic isn't "realistic". This is a FANTASY game, it doesn't have to be realistic as long as it is internally consistant.

Every single article I've read stated that Skyrim is gorgeous. Not one said underwhelming.

This.

It’s a shame about the attributes, although I can't say I was surprised to find they've been given the boot. As for running and jumping, they had better put in some perks the allow you to dramatically increase your speed and jump distance.

Also, the Orc and Khajiit look amazing, big improvement in my opinion.

I agree that was a big problem in Oblivion, the way attributes were leveled what's the point in having majors. Having the skills Block, Armorer, and Heavy Armor as majors at the same time was stupid in Oblivion because those skills governed Endurance. Now that Endurance is out of the picture I can specialize in those skills and not worry about my Health taking a hit. The new system is about choices not about being a god character that can do everything. Why should my character be punished because of a certain attribute that my skills govern.

The system was flawed in those aspects, yes. But that is no argument to take out attributes alltogether. I found myself often "spamming Summon Skeleton for an hour" not because I wanted to raise the attribute, but the skill. They somewhat fixed this with the new system, and they could have fixed attributes just as well.
Even if they thought they just had to remove attributes, there would be options to make sure they are replaced better. Either at least keeping birthsigns or adding perks that are not bound to skills would help.




This is actually the same issue as above - just because you could jump unrealistically, they didn't have to take out accobatics alltogether, just decrease the jump height.

I'm a bit crossed with the attribute removal but I'm really not sympathizing with all this abstract math you guys are arguing about. It's a simplified character creation for for an action game with RPG elements. Daggerfall made good use of its vast amounts of skills and combinations, but I can't see a game like Skyrim making use of a complex character creation even if it had one (i.e. no climbing, streetwise/etiquette dialog, crafting, etc.). You can still define your character as a warrior or a thief, only by skill and perk selection.

Still, Bethesda isn't going to get off easy from this. Even if the attributes wouldn't have done a lot for the game, the principle itself of simplifying/removing them, rather than improving the system you already had isn't going to earn you any respect.

I don't understand why many people think without attributes the game will be less complex or less for role players.

On the contrary, with attributes I just have to increase strength and then I could carry more and increase my damage with every weapon and and and.
With Perks I have to choose wisely what I want to level up. Do I want to give a bonus to encumbrance, or to a weapon?

Like you said Faulgor, it's more specialized, thus it is more complex and we will get more unique characters out of it.
No general modifiers like attributes anymore!

Thankyoulord

Skyrim looks and sounds perfect

Streamlining should not be synonymous with 'dumbing down'. It has been used as a euphemism for that, but in essence it is a positive thing.


The good thing I was referring to was the lack of any negative feedback, not a lack of lists. Personally I think you will still be able to view more than one item at a time in a 'list', and actually have to select it for the detailed 3D representation. But we'll have to wait and see...

I dunno, Its probably cause I just got done looking at stuff like this b4 I clicked the new Skyrim preview:

http://www.hotbloodedgaming.com/wp-content/gallery/rage_3/rage4.jpg
http://www.hotbloodedgaming.com/wp-content/gallery/rage_3/rage6.jpg

http://scrawlfx.com/gallery/albums/battlefield-3/april-8-2011/Battlefield-3_2011_04-08-11_010.jpg
http://scrawlfx.com/gallery/albums/battlefield-3/april-8-2011/Battlefield-3_2011_04-08-11_009.jpg


One can dream