Mana bomb? Drains all of their magicka and sets off a firestorm around them

How about a sort of super-frenzy spell, where targets are driven to such rage that they push their bodies beyond safe limits and start to damage themselves internally (like IRL people who lift cars in life-or-death situations but damage muscles and tendons in the process)? On top of the normal frenzy effect, they'd get bonus attack and movement speed but rapidly lose stamina, and when their stamina is exhausted they start losing health.

It'd definitely apply to standard living enemies, and maybe physical undead too if their bodies can still burn out.

It may look awkward on dragons though; I don't think their animations are well suited to being sped up. You could have it affect them differently, increasing the potency (and duration?) of their breath in exchange for damaging themselves due to overexertion whenever they exhale.

It's a spell only the Dragonborn can learn. Seeing as the Dragonborn has an inate ability with his relation to dragons I don't see why he couldn't force a dragon to hear a word.

Explain what an illusionary light source looks like because I'm having a difficult time imagining a light source image that doesn't produce light.

I like the idea but I don't think that could be an illusion spell.

That forced exertion/burn out idea is pretty good. I agree, not suitable for dragons though.

Dragon Rend is a shout, not a spell. You are suggesting a spell that does the same thing, so it's not lore-friendly and I don't think it could be less than Master level and almost certainly not an Illusion. Dragons are very resistant to Illusions and Charms. And paralysis.

It's up to you, of course, but I would personally be disappointed with a mod that had a spell like that, especially at Apprentice or Adept level. A lot of my mods make Dragons MORE dangerous and I am playing a Bard (Play and Bash and Become a Bard), so I can't have more than three ranks in any combat skill (Adept) and my Master skills are Illusion, Pickpockets and Speech, my Expert Skills are Sneak, Alchemy and Enchanting. My Adept skills are One-handed, Archery, Light Armour, Alteration, Lock Picking and Smithing

It's your mod, so you can do what you like, but you asked for ideas and rationale. It's been accepted Lore for decades in AD&D, Rune Quest, Ars Magicka and other systems that Illusion does not create it's own light.

The illusion creates an illusory light image and anything "illuminated" by the illusion is part of the illusion. Therefore, the way reality is manipulated has to be incorporated into the spell when it is created. So you could not have an illusion of a torch that reveals a pit trap in the dark as the spell creator would not know what is going to be in the dark (unless it is a constant concentration spell and he is there, watching). All the photons in the illusion are being used to reinforce the illusion of a torch - they are not bouncing off objects in the environment. But in the same way he can create an Illusory Wall, he can create an illusory torch with what seems to be a solid floor rather than a pit trap. Creating light is more the province of Alteration and Conjuration whereas a trick like that is more the province of illusion.

The only way Illusions can cause damage are:

1. by getting the victim to harm themselves, walk off a cliff, into a fire etc

2. Stunning, Paralysing, Fear, Enraging, Calming (and so allowing a free Sneak attack) Staggering, Beguiling, Fascinating etc and then manipulating them to harm themselves (difficult as their survival instinct would allow a save for subconscious disbelief)

3. Illusory damage (non-real, temporary) caused by the belief that the illusion is real

4. Phantasmal damage, caused by the belief being implanted directly into the victim's mind (often shock and fear)

5. Combined Illusion/Phantasm where the power of belief is so strong the victim may suffer real, psycho-somatic damage

6. Quasi-real damage where some of the damage is illusory but some is real due to having some substance from Shadowstuff.

But we've talked about this before. It's up to you decide what you want in your mod, but I'm happy to discuss things with you for as long as you like.

But none of these except shadow magick will affect mindless undead and very few would ever have a chance of fooling a dragon.

Take Suffocation.

Destruction could burn of the oxygen so that as well as burning you start to suffocate. Ice could not do this, but Flame could.

Alteration could turn your lungs to gills

Necromancy could stop you breathing through nerve damage or poisoning your haemoglobin

Conjuration could conjure a poisonous gas, smoke or anything physical that prevents you breathing

Illusion could crate an illusion you are drowning underwater, or an illusion of any of these things, or plant a phantasm that you cannot breath and believe you are suffocating, and suffering psycho-somatic effects. You might actually stop breathing, but as soon as you lose consciousness and your mind is free, you will start breathing again.

Restoration could not do this at all.

So the key is to be creative with the limited tools in the CK.

I still think that you should choose three animals

Shadow Wolf

Shadow Bear

Shadow Cat

Re-colour the textures with GIMP and make Shadow, Demi-shadow and Shades spells. They WILL damage undead, but not as much as real Summoned animals.

But it's your call.

~.~

Magicka has to do with the mind and illusion affects the mind, I can see an illusionist manipulating their targets mind and making their magicka like... Explode around them, maybe change the firestorm colored blue instead?

@ShadeyBladey

In reference to the light spell harming undead, is it the light it self that's meant to harm the undead or is it the sight of light? I've always thought it was at the sight of it, in which my spell would work as an illusion, even by your rules.

As for the illusionary summons, why do they do physical damage? I understand that they can make the npc feel the damage momentarily but they'll eventually realize that they aren't in any real danger and ignore the target. Which I can't do in the CK(I can think of a way that might work but I haven't tested it in a combat environment), but that still doesn't explain the sounds of hitting the target or the target bleeding. The best I can do is create an illusion of a bear that scares the npc away.

P.s, thanks for the list of ways to damage, myself and others can use that for ideas.

Hmm, I understand now. I think manipulating ones magicka is more of an Alteration spell idea, I really good one too, I can see it being implemented really well.

I was thinking about making an alteration, conjuration and restoration spell packs too once I finish this mod.

You've never seen Buffy or a vampire film? It's the Sunlight that burns them. Mindless undead will keep coming unless they are turned. Intelligent undead like Vampires will run like hell.

It depends. A spell like an AD&D Spectral Force wolf will have sight, sound, temperature and smell, so will be more believable. The damage would be illusory, IE after the battle they recover and realise they aren't actually hurt at all. Things like wounds and blood are due to belief and expectation and possibly even phantasmal components as their mind is gripped by the illusion. Spells like that also need concentration, so the caster is controlling the illusion and what the victim sees and feels, including sound, wounds and blood. That would be hard to do in Skyrim.

So that's why I suggested just making a distraction illusion which is invulnerable but does no damage, but still aggros whatever it attacks. Or maybe 1 point of damage per hit? It will take the heat off the Illusionist while he does something else. Or his followers pepper the enemy with arrows.

But in Skyrim, everything regenerates health so fast any way, it's all like temporary damage.

On the other hand, a Shadow Monster Wolf is quasi-real, so does quasi-real damage (partly real). It's not just made of light, colour, sound, smell and heat, it's made of shadowstuff as well which is some bizarre other-worldy substance from the demi-plane of Shadow only Illusionists can use. The victim believes it's all real, but it's only 20%, 40% or 60% real, depending on the spell (20%, 60% and 80% in 3.5E, but the spell levels are 4, 7 and 9 instead of 4, 5 and 6).

You cannot make them identical to the original spells in Skyrim, but you could make a reasonable facsimile.

~.~

I like the distraction idea, but not sure about implementation. If the distraction illusion doesn't do any damage (or one point of damage), surely the target would be aware and would ignore the distraction to seek out a stronger foe (isn't that what the game engine makes enemies do during combat?)

One way of working around this could be to temporarily set the target to be essential - the spell could appear to be causing damage to the target, but couldn't actually kill him - he'll be distracted and will take damage (the damage will be in his mind, but his health bar will show as usual as an indicator to the player) - as soon as the spell wears off his health could be replenished. Of course the downside to this way of doing things is that any other form of attack also wouldn't do any damage while he's in essential state...

For the visuals, we'd really need a new "distraction" shader to make the "summoned" allies appear different from summoned creatures.

Ah, I'm not sure about that but it would make sense if the AI did that. And yes, with that sort of illusion, if the target was aware that they were not being hurt they would realise that it's an illusion. The idea was for the damage to be illusory so we can role-play that the enemy believes they are being damaged but they are not really.

I don't know - maybe the Spectral Wolf could do the same (but temporary) damage as an Ice Wolf the same level as the caster, but also heals 99% of the damage at the same time with a 2 second delay? Would that make the NPC and creature AI think that the Spectral Wolf was friendly?

But I do notice that enemies go for Summoned creatures first and also my followers before me, unless I attack first. The AI is definitely not as primitive as in, say, Baldur's Gate, where they attacked the last one to hit them. You could surround them and they kept turning round in a circle until they were dead! I do spend a lot of time in Sneak mode with Boots of Muffling, though.

One of my Druid spells is a Spirit Wolf. As it is meant to be ethereal, it cannot be harmed but also does little damage, if any (I'll have to check). It's an Expert spell and I think I made it so the level scaled with the caster's level. I'll check it out and shoot some arrows into the enemies while they are fighting it and see what happens.

That sounds promising. I think if the victim becomes essential for the duration of the spell, the Dovahkiin could still hurt him, just not kill him. I think we would have to make the Spectral Wolf vulnerable to damage as well, then, so it could be "dispelled" by being killed.

For things like ordinary illusions I don't think there's any need. It would be a clue for the victims, although I don't know how we'd make that actually happen in Skyrim.

If we take the AD&D model, we'd have:

First Edition/2E DnD3.5 Sensory Components

1. Phantasmal Force Silent Image Visuals only, so no sound sets

2. Improved Phantasmal Force Minor image has sound

3. Spectral Force Major image has sound, smell, heat so more believable

4. Phantasmal Killer Phantasmal Killer a phantasm in the mind of the victim cause him to save or die from fright

BUT for spells like Shadow Monsters, Demi-Shadow Monsters and Shades, which are partly real, we could shade the textures much darker and maybe create a wispy, smoky aura around them.

And it doesn't have to be animals, it could be Orcs, Elves, Hagravens, whatever.

~.~

I have and I remember that the vampire started burning when the light hit their skin.

I have made a distraction illusion which is invulnerable and does no damage and I'm planning to make a view tiers later on when I've found an agreeable way to damage undead and to affect dragons some how.

The problem with temporary damage, is that if it puts them near death and then you cause 10 damage, the target will die giving away that the damage is infact not illusionary.

I do not understand how you can be okay with 'quasi-real' damage but not an illusion of the sun that makes undead burn when they're near/see it.

Why Orcs and Elves? Racist!

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but I just remembered Otto's Irresistible Dance. You could name it after one of the ancient Bards or that King where they do the Guy Fawkes festival in Solitude.

It would look really cool if you could do an animation for it as well.

Otto's Irresistible Dance

No resistance allowed

The spell causes the recipient to begin dancing frantically and frenetically. It is impossible for the victim to do anything other than caper, prance and cavort about for 30 seconds.

Stamina reduces as if Sprinting at full speed.

His Armour Rating is reduced by 20%

He cannot defend, attack or use a shield.

He has only a 5% chance to Resist Magick, Fire, Frost, Shock and Poison.

Attacking him does not break the spell.

He remains hostile throughout. If he was not hostile before you cast the spell, he certainly is now.

It's an 8th level AD&D Charm spell, so fits Skyrim's concept of Illusion. It would probably be at least Expert, possibly Master level.

It doesn't do damage, but takes him out of the fight and makes the victim much more susceptible to damage.

~.~

love that idea!

And a frantic Irish Reel violin jig as a sound effect would be cool as well.

Already made that dance spell, it was one of my first. It didn't work properly though due to how the animation works. Might work now since I've learnt quite a lot since then but it would make other spells redundant. For example, the coward spell would become useless(which was originally supposed to be the dancing spell). I'll think about adding it back in with different costs and effects though but it's not a priority at the moment.

I just finished my play through with the spells and they work out quite nicely with in conjuction of the original spells, it never felt like they over shadowed them. I didn't take the effecting draugr, daedra and automachines perk though.

The biggest problem was undead in which I had to resort to conjuration.

What level is the Coward spell?

I notice that when you attacked the guy in your video, he went hostile and attacked you back straight away. So it only takes him out of the combat unless he is attacked, which suggests a low to medium level to me.

With Irresistible Dance, it's a high level spell because, although it only affects one character:

1. it always works because there's no chance to resist (you might want to tie the victim level to Perks like the Calm and Fear spells are);

2. it makes the victim totally defenceless against physical and magickal attack;

3. it cannot be broken by attacking the character - he is still dancing for the full duration (which maybe should be 20 seconds).

So if Coward is lower level, it would not be made redundant any more than Flames is made redundant by Firebolt or Fireball.

The hardest thing will be the animation. This video shows what can be done, but I suspect you'd need special software or at least some complex scripting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmscq4C41xo

You'd just need the victim to flail about, like running on the spot while jumping up and down, wiggling his arms and shaking his head from side to side.

Although, if you had an Irish Jig sound effect, you might want him to do some sort of Celtic dance.

But it would be a great spell to have.

~.~

Those are the reasons I had in mind when I said I'll be thinking about it. The coward spell is meant for fleeing only, another one to add to your list.

The problem with the animation the first time I tested it was that the animation only would work while the npc were not hostile. When I asked around I found that some animations can only fire under certain situations(like being a non-hostile).

I agree, it is a nice spell.

Here are some more ideas from AD&D Charm spells. Some effects would be very difficult to implement in Skyrim, so I’ve simplified them.

So you could have:

Novice Sheogoath’s Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter

Apprentice Confusion

Adept Feeblemind

Expert Pelagius’ Lamentable Belabourment

Master Olaf’s Irresistible Dance

Confusion

Apprentice

Aimed Area with 30 ft radius “explosion”

Several humanoid NPCs in 30 ft radius of point of impact (level limited by Perks as it’s a low level spell?)

Resist Magick to avoid effect

Causes Confusion, indecision and the inability to take effective action for 30 seconds.

If Confused, the creatures will react like this:

30% chance - Wander away (unless prevented) for duration of spell

50% chance - Stand confused

20% chance - Attack nearest creature

Wandering creatures move as far from the caster as possible

If attacked, confused creatures turn hostile

Feeblemind

Adept

Aimed projectile

Single humanoid Target

Resist Magick to avoid effect

Magicka reduced to zero

Magicka regeneration rate reduced to Zero

“Intelligence” reduced to 5, so victim wanders aimlessly in different directions, lies down, gets up and wanders off, plays with mud etc

Especially useful against Spell Casters.

Pelagius’ Lamentable Belabourment

Expert

Aimed Area with 60 ft radius “explosion”

Several humanoid NPCs in 60 ft radius of point of impact

Resist Magick to avoid effect

Affected characters are non-hostile and start conversations with each other. As long as they are not attacked they ignore all else going on around them, spending their time talking and arguing to the exclusion of other activities.

(This next bit might not be possible, so you could jump to the final stage)

After 10 seconds, affected NPCs Resist Magick and if they fail they wander off in confusion for 30 seconds and then the spell ends for them. Otherwise, they keep arguing.

After 20 seconds, NPCs still affected Resist Magick again or go into a Rage for 10 seconds, attacking other people affected by the spell.

Those who successfully Resist the Rage effect realize their foolishness and collapse to the ground for 10 seconds, lamenting their stupidity, unless attacked (in which case they fight back).

~.~

Nice list, I'll take some into consideration. I already have a silence spell, so there's no reason for feeble mind. I can't make them play with mud, even if I could, it would be as powerful as a paralyze spell. The laughter one looks funny since the facial animations don't change. I think I know how to get the npc to laugh but as other modders pointed out, the laugh facial animation is hideous.

I used to make [in spellmaking] a spell that would make npc's flee over a wide area [15-25 feet] with a 2nd effect of frenzy in ~5 feet, so that some would run and another/others would chase.

It is fun.

You could make an ethereal conjuration that doesn't give damage, but distracts. A decoy spell. could do it as a rune too. Maybe the clone can explode with a calm effect at higher level.

That first one sounds pretty cool. Thanks.

I had a similar one for the second idea. Mine was that the illusionary image was something like a big spider that would hit with fear attacks causing the npcs to flee.

PM me a heads-up if you put it online, I'd like to have that spell again.

No problem. What did you name it? I was thinking mass chaos but it sounds a bit generic.

When you say dmg do you only mean hp dmg? B/c illusion spells could also dmg or drain attributes/skills.

A spell could make a person believe they are wielding a different weapon than they really are (ex: bandit with a dagger thinks its a greatsword) which would cause them wield that weapon incorrectly. In game effect would just be a minus to to all combat skills (1h, 2h, archery). Another way to implement this (if you dont like the different weapon idea) is perceived muscle fatigue which would lower skills in the same way.

My first thought was the illusion of the weapon becoming a snake or something so npcs toss it or wont use it; however, that would basically be the same effect as the weapon heating illusion spells mentioned earlier in the post just a different reason for it.

As for spells vs undead, arent the drauger the reanimated corpses of members of the dragon cult (i believe there is a loading screen that hints at that)? If so, a spell that simulates a dragon or dragon priest commanding the drauger to fight for you, flee from you, or ignore you would make sense.

A spell vs dragons is pretty hard to come up with only idea i had was a spell the summons an illusionary herd of tasty cows or the like to draw the dragon into landing (basically simulating the effect of dragonrend in a more lore friendly manner).

Also, i think paralyze being an illusion spell makes perfect sense. Thinking you are suddenly unable to move would have the same effect as really being unable to move suddenly- you would freeze in place and fall over just the same.

Actually, as a reference to Fable ...I called the spell "Chicken Chaser".

Chaos would be OK as a name.

Or Chaotic Commands?