I'm making a mod centred around Illusion magic. I'm trying to think of a good illusion spell that can do damage but it needs to have a reason for doing damage. I have a few high level one's but they can't be lowered to take less damage because of what the spell actually does. If I do it becomes way too OP.

Anyone got any ideas?

I'll consider good non-damaging unique ideas but I'm more desperate for damaging spells.

EDIT: For those that don't want to read the whole thread, I'm now only searching for damaging spells for undead or dragons. So far we've come up with a pseudo sun for the undead and causing the dragon to hear unwanted words(need to expand on this). Keep in mind I want the play style to stay the same or at least not become a destruction style play where you go around and shoot things willy nilly.

These are some of the I've already implemented in my mod:

Dominate animal 3 tiers
Concentrated invisibility
Veiled
Silence
Suicide
Imaginary Skeleton
Coward
False Ego
Hot Weapon 2 tiers
Burning Weapon
Exhaustion

I'll probably add some area of effect versions into master spells and a few more tiers to some of the above.

MIND CONTROL

or perhaps some sort of insanity thing inspired by the always fun Shiviring isles of Oblivion (Like making them see things that scare them to death)

Illusion spells that do damage? Hmm. I suppose the best way would be to induce the afflicted to harm themselves. I'd imagine there could be a spell that would cause the target to hallucinate - perhaps little bugs covering their entire body - and then they would furiously scratch and tear at themselves. But there aren't any real ways I could think of implementing this in game without adequate voice recordings or proper animations. Another idea would be to inflict suicidal depression on someone, although this probably suffers the same limitations as above.

Illusion is a school of magic that merely changes the way things are perceived. If it actually did straight-up damage, we'd be breaking the rules. In fact, I think the rage spells are meant to fulfill the role of damaging offensive spells for the school.

If you want any ideas for non-damaging illusion spells, I'd be happy to suggest some to you.

What do you mean by mind control? I can't remember the Shivering Isles spells

Yes, my only damaging spell is a spell that causes the target to inflict damage on themselves. Hullucinations were an idea I thought of implementing but I didn't know how to implement it. I'll try to find a way to make the npc scratch itself to death but I haven't seen any animations for it.

Suicidal depression is already done ..can't use it for lower levels though.

As I said, I'm more than happy to hear other ideas.

Requiem has spells like AD&D spells such as Phantasmal Killer - save or die.

you could create a split world which affects everything, even the player. so that when you cast the spell, a double of the NPC pops up, along with a double of the player.

and ofc the npc would attack himself, while your's would be mirrored and fight along side of you.

maybe change the hue of the world, light greys and blues to make it more spirit world-esque. and the double would be a wispy see through, ghost like apparition.

edit: and ofc the point is that its just an illusion, and in the real world, he's hacking himself up.

What's this do?

Sounds like quite a big spell, I'm not sure how to implement it. Another thing is that is seems like the spell caster is creating a secondry problem for itself.

Thanks anyway. Do you have any other ideas?

well there is a kneeling prayer idle anim,

so you might be able to put an x marker down between the actors knees and then teleport a sword pointing into his chest, so it looks like he just falls on his sword, but that would also be difficult to implement.

even though it may not fit the bill, you might be able to create an invisible inference of your player character so that the NPC tries to fight the invisible you, and then you go behind him and stick him with the pointy end.

also, it might be neat to have a guy, mid battle, lay down and take a nap, or just pull out a peice of bread and start eating it.

i dont really think you can do much with illusion, except maybe create a illusion where the NPC thinks he's drowning, and just holds his breath and dies. it wouldn't really require an anim, he would just fall over dead. maybe have to queue up a gurgle death sound.

Well, Requiem is a total Overhaul and Difficulty mod, sort of a Hard Core, Iron Man, Role-Playing thing which makes everything more deadly and changes almost every aspect of the game mechanics. I don't actually have it, though.

Phantasmal Killer is an AD&D Illusionist spell going all the way back to First Edition. Basically, it creates a phantasm in the mind of the victim who is struck with horror and sees the most terrifying, hideous thing he can imagine - his deepest, darkest fear. He flees in terror (in his mind) as the monster pursues and if the creature hits him he dies of shock and fear. The monster is invulnerable to attacks and spells and can pass through barriers like a ghost (IE, no collision). The only chance he has is to disbelieve the phantasm or, in Skyrim, Resist Magick. It's only 4th level, so probably Apprentice in Skyrim. Maybe Adept.

In Skyrim, you could probably just have the victim enveloped by a shadowy shape and then save vs magick or flee in terror and ten seconds later drop dead. Only he can see the monster, after all.

Skyrim Illusion spells are basically Fear, Calm and Frenzy, so there's not much you can do. They are mostly Charm-type spells. But in AD&D you had audio, photonic and chromatic illusions, phantasms, shadow magick and the invisibility family as well as others which mimicked Conjuration and Evocation (Destruction).

I'd love a decent set of Illusion spells for Skyrim.

The main True Illusions relied on the victim believing the illusion, and the damage was illusory (imagined, not real).

Phantasms could cause phantasmal damage (where the mind affects the body and real damage could occur, like stigmata or dying of shock), while Shadow magick spells were quasi-real and did real damage, although not as much as a real summoned monster or Fireball. Proper illusions would not work in Skyrim except to act as decoys that cannot do actual damage.

EG an illusion of an Orc would be a summoned Orc that doesn't actually do any damage but would distract the enemies as they kill it.

A Shadow Monster Orc would do some real damage while it acts as a decoy.

An illusion of a Fireball would turn them hostile but not really burn them.

A Demi-Shadow Magick Fireball would do some real damage but not as much as a Destruction Fireball and would not benefit from perks like Augmented Flames and Destruction Dual Casting etc. Illusion perks WOULD apply.

So for low or medium damage Illusions, the easiest thing is to borrow from the Conjuration and Destruction school but call them Shadow Monsters (20% max hp), Demi-Shadow Monsters (40% max hp), Shades (60% max hp), Shadow Magick, Demi-Shadow Magick and so on.

But if you want some other ideas:

Colour Spray (Novice)

A flash of vivid rainbow colours hits one NPC or monster and causes a sensory overload that stuns them (stagger) for 5 seconds if they save and if they fail to save vs magick they are unconscious for 10 seconds and (when they wake up) blinded for 10 seconds. It doesn't do actual damage, but you should be able to hurt them with your dagger and then cast another spell.

Rainbow Pattern (Apprentice)

Something like the Eye of Magnus, a floating, swirling, sphere of scintillating colours, is created and anyone within range has to save vs spell (resist magick) or is Fascinated (or paralysed) for as long as they look at it. I don't know if you could make them follow it as you move the sphere so they walk off a cliff, though.

Phantasmal Killer (Apprentice, maybe Adept)

I mentioned already.

Prismatic Spray (Expert)

A 70 foot long shimmering, multicolored ray of light 15 ft wide at the end spews forth from your hands and any enemy lower than level 12 is struck blind for 20 seconds regardless and all enemies are hit by one of the coloured rays, with a 1 in 8 chance of being hit by two rays at once.

1. Red 20 points of damage, save vs. magick for half.

2. Orange 40 points of damage, save vs. magick for half.

3. Yellow 80 points of damage, save vs. magick for half.

4. Green Save vs. poison for 20 points of poison damage or die

5. Blue Save vs. magick or be turned to stone (paralysed for 120 seconds).

6. Indigo Save vs. magick or go insane (Fear or Fury for 120 seconds).

7. Violet Save vs. magick or be teleported to Sovngarde.

Mislead (Adept)

A simple double of yourself is created which has a simple script to interact with the enemies while you are turned Invisible and can run away from the area or do whatever you want. (Invisibility True if you can make it).

Project Image (Adept)

A double of yourself is created which can use weapons and cast spells and is the same level as you with the same weapons, skills, perks and spells, and will fight to the death in a Frenzy against any hostile creature or NPC. You are not invisible and have to concentrate on the illusion, though. So if you do anything else, draw a weapon, cast a different spell or get hit by an enemy, the illusion ends.

Weird (Master)

Like Phantasmal Killer, but affects ALL enemies in 30 foot radius and even if they save vs magick they are paralysed for 5 seconds and lose 20 points from all combat skills, then flee in terror. Otherwise, they die.

I also like the suggestion that a spell crates a double of the enemy and it has to fight itself. Maybe call it Hostile Imposter or Doppleganger?

But an Illusion spell that exists in all fantasy games, including Daggerfall and Morrowind, but not Skyrim is Improved Invisibility (Invisibility True), where you do NOT become visible by opening a door or drawing a weapon or even when slashing something to pieces.

If you could make THAT (I've looked and failed), I'd try your mod just for that spell!

~.~

I'll look into the animations and see what I can do. I don't think I can do the sword one though, but maybe the drowning one.

I already have something similar to the phantasm killer except mine doesn't do any damage. I don't particularly like the direct damage one's like the spray because it feels too much like the destruction school style of play. As for the true invisibilty, I'll look into doing that.

Although I haven't responded to everything, I did read it all and I'll be using it as a reference if I get stuck some where down the line. Thanks!

Keep the ideas coming! Don't worry about how to implement them, let me find a way.

Apocalypse has a spell that reduces the target's health by X amount for a few seconds then wears off, and repeated casts don't stack. The numbers are entirely too high and if you get them low enough it just kills them outright instead of only being able to leave them with 1 life or something so the spells are completely overpowered, but that's one idea.

Hyperempathy - Whenever the affected NPC attacks someone it causes 50% of the damage back.

What makes that an illusion spell though?

I like this idea. But I can't see it being useful, especially at 50%. A mages health usually stays below 150 and a warrior would be something like 300. The warrior has to take 600 damage to the mage just to kill one warrior..and that's assuming the warrior's last shot takes the entire amount of health that's needed to prevent the low health animation from firing.

It makes them think they lost health. The important thing is that it wears off and can only be applied once.

No self-respecting Mage should be adventuring alone without Armour spells and Mage Armour perks from Alteration - especially an Illusionist.

And he should not be in melee anyway - if he is, he's done something wrong! It would be useful against Archers, though.

The damage from a spell like this would be Illusory, maybe phantasmal. Maybe make it so that the Warrior takes half the weapon damage he would deal if the Mage was completely unarmoured, with no spells? But the damage the Mage suffers is also half the weapon damage, minus the reduction of any protection spells and items?

But the idea does seem more like an Alteration spell than an Illusion, if it is reflecting damage.

~.~

But you said it DOES reduce the users health by X amount. Sorry for being picky, but if I want an attack to reduce health I need to give enough reasoning for it to be an illusion spell and not a illusion/destruction hybrid.

Why would an illusionist need armor? The point is not to get into any fights at all, and if that fails you run like hell. Illusion is a very passive skill. But I can see why it would be useful against hidden archers though.

I had something like this in mind with the hyper empathy thing except it would be 2 times the damage. But after the posts in here about it being half and how you said that's more of an alteration spell I've decided that it would be unbalanced and not useful enough for an illusionist. I can see it doing well for melee characters that are surrounded by enemies. I don't know, I can't make up my mind about this one.

That's like complaining having an imaginary beast make them scared is some illusion/conjuration hybrid so doesn't fit. It's an illusionary health loss. I don't know what else to say.

May I suggest looking at the mod Mighty Magick, which might give you some neat ideas for your project?

It's not like that at all. Conjuration is bringing something from another world, that's the reason there's conjure familiar and not conjure wolf. Illusionary beast/being is non existant, like a projection. Which is the reason why my imaginary beings don't cause damage.

I had a quick look at the page, it seems to move a lot of magic into the school and change how it works. Here's a quote:

The only new spell is Medusa's Gaze. I don't really see how paralyze is an illusion spell. You could argue that they're not really paralyzed and it's all in their head but when you paralyze an npc they freeze and drop in place like solid statues would. You could get away with it if they rag dolled instead.

I looked further down and it seems he hasn't listed all the spells, I'll have to download the mod just to check which is a pain, plus I'll have to create a character and set it 100 just to see them all. He mentions phantasmals.

Is there anything else?

EDIT:Just noticed a read me file in the download section.

Of course he should run, but sometimes he can't. And when running, you can be chased and shot at. Being Invisible would help, especially if you Project an image of yourself at the same time.

And I don't mean real armour, I mean the spells like Ebony Flesh. AD&D First Edition had spells like Phantom Armour, Phantom Steed etc which were Shadowmagick spells. There's no reason an Illusionist cannot use those. Unless you just don't want to.

Don't forget, true Illusions manipulate shadow and light, colour and sound to create images (like a Spectral Force monster that is invulnerable to damage and does no real damage itself, but the damage can be imagined as it is expected.

Phantasmal illusions can cause psychosomatic damage or other mental effects, like believing you are paralysed, petrified, injured, burned, blind, dead etc.

Shadow Magick illusions are quasi-real and can cause real damage because they have some actual shadowstuff substance woven into them. So they can also give protection or create a creature with some quasi-real substance.

I know this is not AD&D, but we are looking for inspiration. There is a reason Illusion/Phantasm sits between the schools of Enchantment/Charm and Alteration. Illusion, Phantasm and Shadowstuff have overlapping effects with those schools.

In fact, Skyrim's Illusions are mainly Charm spells (Courage, Fury, Calm), except for Muffle, Invisibility and Clairvoyance (which is really a Divination).

Charms affect the minds of the target, changes their perception of the spell caster etc. Enchantments affect the magickal properties of objects.

Alteration affects many things, like the physical properties of objects and creatures on a macromolecular scale. It creates physical barriers, makes the skin as hard as stone or ebony, transmutes iron into silver ore, creates light sources, let's you breathe underwater, moves objects at a distance etc.

Illusion can do similar things, but on a much more microscopic, quantum energy scale - it manipulates much smaller dimensions like shadow and light, sound, smell etc to create it's effects. It affects the mind by creating phantasms only the victim can see, hear, touch and smell and so on.

Destruction manipulates larger, raw magickal power and energies from the inner elemental planes (Oblivion), roughly shaped into something like a ball, an icicle, a lightning bolt.

Conjuration - real world creatures and atronachs are summoned to the area (try Conjuration Madness), either from Nirn or Oblivion, and energies like souls can be manipulated, the dead animated (Necromancy) etc.

But the spell selection in Skyrim is pitiful and the schools are mashed together compared with Morrowind etc.

~.~

Yea, I agree, it is sad that Bethesda didn't fully flesh out the illusion skill like D&D. There could be a lot more possiblities if they included the stuff you said. But I'd like to stick to their rules, maybe bend them a bit here and there. My main aim is to keep the style of play the same for an illusionist. There's no difference in play style if I make colourful spray magic illusion spell or use flames.

I still need at least 1 more health affecting spell, if anyone has any ideas please let me know soon. As I mentioned before, don't think about the how it'll be implemented because even if I can't do it, your idea may lead to something else that I can do.

How about an illusion spell that convinces nearby enemies that there's something crawling or attacking the NPC. That way the other NPC's attack.

Well, if you stick to Bethesda's rules, you'd have no health-damaging spells at all. Just spells like Fury that make them hurt each other.

And I think the use of colourful visual effects is quite important to the feel of the role.

There is a mod called Rainbows, so it is possible to create such effects, but it might need new meshes and textures and the software to make them - the CK only allows you to use stuff in the game already. EG I used Sothink SWF Decompiler to recolour the map markers.

But isn't a health-damaging Illusion that uses a rainbow spray pretty much the same as a flame that does damage? In mechanics, yes, but in terms of how you feel when playing it, not at all.

If I play an Illusionist, I do not allow myself to use Destruction at all. Alteration and Conjuration are OK (no Necromancy). Restoration but no perks in favour of Alchemy.

Why do you want a low level Illusion spell that affects Heath, anyway?

Why would he not just use Flames or Ice Spike?

You could try something else:

Phantasmal Plague - the victim believes he is struck with a debilitating disease that reduces Health, Stamina and Magicka by 50% and all combat-related skills by 20 points (for a limited duration, say 30 seconds) and reduces movement to 50% as if Slowed. He could cower (like when yielding), believing himself to be really sick and feeling nauseous.

Phantasmal Exhaustion - a wave of phantasmal energy implants the unshakable belief that the victim is completely fatigued and suffering from extreme exhaustion. Stamina reduces to zero, Stamina Regeneration ceases for 30 seconds and the victim collapses as if unconscious for 5 seconds. If you could work in something to decrease his Carry Weight by 80% and maybe Slow him, like the poison, all the better.

~.~

That's alright, I just don't know how to make that. I could make it something like a rally spell, but to make all the npcs attack one npc is out of my reach.

I have stuck to Bethedas rules and I have made a damaging spell. The spell I'm refering to I call suicidal tendencies, essentially it's a spell that causes the npc to slit their own wrist, causing them to bleed out. Another one that I'm still working on fixing is a spell that causes the npc to laugh hysterically til they can't breath. I haven't got a name for this one, might go with 'Jimmy Carr' or 'Frankie Boyle'.

I have a few more ready to go too but the script isn't working exactly the way I want. I'll release a beta version of my mod after I either fix the script or someone thinks of a good damaging spell.

About the mechanics of destruction and illusion, I said play styles. Instead of shooting fire out of your hands it'll be rainbows.

I want to give the player the ability to rely on illusion spells a lot more. I don't want a pure illusionist to not have to change styles too much. For example, my health damaging spell isn't shooting fireballs over and over, it's a spell that you stay at a distance, cast and wait in the shadows.

I like the sickness/plague idea, I'm trying to think of a way to make the npc believe they have a sickness. I saw a spell once that makes a bunch of rats or skeevers appear at the feet of an npc but it was a conjuration type spell I think and it did direct damage.

The exhaustion one is alright as well. Do you know the name of the poison that you're talking about? I've never used poisons my self.

You're British? Tidy! There was an AD&D spell called "Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter" that did something like that. It was an Enchantment/Charm spell, but it fits Betheda's idea of Illusion. You could call it "Sheogorath's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter"? Maybe add a sound effect from Cicero giggling like a mad man?

Luckily, I've been working on an Alchemy mod. There are no potions of Slow in the CK and you cannot find or buy them in-game, but you can brew them.

Target moves at 50% speed for seconds.

Ingredient Cost Mag Dur Value Form ID Eff1 Eff2 Eff3 Eff4

Deathbell 1 50 5 247 000516C8 Damage Health Ravage Stamina Slow Weakness to Poison

Large Antlers 1 50 5 247 0006bC0A Restore Stamina Fortify Stamina Slow Damage Stamina Regen

River Betty 1 50 5 247 00106E1A Damage Health Fortify Alteration Slow Fortify Carry Weight

Salt Pile 1 50 5 247 00034CDF Weakness to Magic Fortify Restoration Slow Regenerate Magicka

MGEF = AlchDamageSpeed

Form ID = 00073F25

Assoc Item 1 SpeedMult

Assoc Item 2 MagicSlow

ResistValue = http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1468348-illusion-spell-idea/PoisonResist

Keywords

MagicAlchHarmful

MagicSlow

So you just need to duplicate this and change the name to MagicDamageSpeed (as there is no Slow spell either) to make a spell MGEF to make a Slow spell element as part of the new spell. Obviously, change it to MagicResist instead of PoisonResist, and the keyword, but you know the rest.

I'd also add conditions so that it does not affect Undead or Dwemer constructs unless you have the relevant perks.

The only thing you need to do to make them think they have a disease is make a spell that has the effects the disease causes. That's why I suggested they cower for a while, as they feel really sick. But you'd probably want a visual effect as well, boils and blotches, scabs and sores, a green haze like the Paralysis effect.

~.~