I'd agree it does look better in the Skyrim picture. However there's not really any architecture on the furthest edges so it's hard to tell. I'm sure they have put some focus on this issue though thanks to all of the improvement mods for Oblivion. Especially the distant architecture mod that let you see ruins etc.


If you maxed out the view distance it wasn't bad at all. There were still problems with architecture loading sometimes though.

On a PC with low settings, it's more of an issue with the "pretty" stuff. I set some of those things lower, so that I can set the enemy distance higher. Depending on the terrain and settings, you can see large hillsides without trees, and watch the moving circle of ground clutter & grass that's centered around you.

But, yeah.... it's more of an issue in Fallout 3, where you can have various "zoom in" things like scopes, and your enemies all tend to have ranged weapons and attack from a distance.

In Morrowind, the maximum view distance on a clear day seemed to be just slightly more than the pop-in distance. I occasionally spotted spawns appearing and then "dropping" into position, but it was on the fringe of visibility, and only if I was looking off-angle. There were times when the claustrophobic fog got really annoying, such as when I really felt that I should be able to tell direction from a tall nearby landmark or monument, but it was invisible at that range. It worked for a game at that time, and still isn't "bad", but modern gamers will inevitably expect better.

In Oblivion, the world felt tiny in comparison, because you could see at a glance just how far it was to the distant landmarks on your map. By making it all visible at once, it totally destroyed any attempt to portray Cyrodiil as anything larger than a flea-speck on the world map, making it seem like a single quaint little "county" instead of a vast province spanning hundreds of miles. The occasional breathtaking view was nice for a while, but they would still have happened in most cases with a slightly more limited visibility range. The tradeoff, the removal of any sense of mystery or feeling of vast distance, wasn't worth it, in my opinion.

Running MGE with my current Morrowind game, I have the fog distance set to a min of around 0.8 and a max of 6 cells. That gives me a very gradual "hazing out" from slightly under MW's normal fog distance to a pretty good distance away. My character can't see the Vivec cantons from the Seyda Neen silt strider platform, but can just start ot make out indistinct shapes through the haze from a few dozen paces down the road to it. Overall, it gives a good "illusion" of distant visibility, with the shadowy shapes of hills visible on the far horizon in many cases. without actually being able to quite see the next town over.

Something is needed that's half-way between MW's claustrophobic fog and OB's endless view distance of a limited object. Hopefully Skyrim will find a good middle ground.

Definately the pop up. When a pop up happens it's so immersion breaking. Pop ups have been around for a long time. I get used to them as standard but that doesn't mean I like pop ups. I guess tolerate would be a better word.

I run it on high settings, and it's pretty good, but sometimes you have something like a giant rock appearing somewhere and completely changing th look of the land or a building popping up out of nothing.

Oblivion's engine was extremely incredibly horribly written when it came to how it rendered distant objects (and many objects/NPCs in general for that matter).
Bethesda improved this for FO3.

Obviously things the view distance shouldn't a problem in 2011. Look at any other game and you'll see they got zero problems as well. The smallest objects are of course tied to an object distance, which should be so big that you won't notice them fadingly popping up.

I never even noticed the morrowind fog everyone talks about. I'll just go back to my and GraniteDevil's point that when your mind is shaped by text games sometimes everything we have now looks awesome and is a great day in gaming. Heck I'm replaying the might and magic series now and the graphics still look fine to me. I remember when Final Fantasy 7 blew my mind with its graphics awesomeness.

This is not to say games should let graphics slide or anything like that. But the idea that a view distance hang up being immersion breaking when I did not have my immersion disrupted on games that were on my Apple 2 e or my Atari 2600 etc. seem off to me. Maybe its just the overuse of the term immersion.

Do I want better graphics? Yes.
Does not having top end graphics wreck the game for me? No.
Does not having top end graphics even hurt the game for me? No. The gameplay is everything, top end graphics are just the sprinkles on top of my ice cream.
Would outright bad graphics hurt the game for me? Sure, while I m having plenty of fun playing classics I'd be irritated if a current gen game I might drop $60 on fell down in this regard. I'd still have fun I am sure, but I'd still be irritated about it(I'd feel cheated given the year and cost) and that would damage my game.

View distance has nothing to do with my personal immersion.

Oblivion on max was great. It had some weird loading priorities so I could see some stuff REALLY far away being loaded before it'd load something much more obvious to my current perspective, but it never bothered me, really.

On the other hand, playing on any draw distance below the Max would lead me to immediately recognize the pop-uppiness and it would compromise my immersion quite a bit. I'd see my brother playing it on X-Box and it would annoy me quite a bit. It's all about how used you are to a given draw distance parameter. I WOULD, however, love to see it greatly improved for Skyrim, though my greatest worry is texture size and effects when it comes to PC, compared to console. Make it beautiful and coherent to the developments on each hardware. Today's X-Box 360 is Oblivion's same 360. PCs have evolved enough to warrant a very significant difference.

For those who started playing older games I'd like to know if you find yourselves equally immersed in games regardless of graphics or if graphical quality, style etc. I'd define immersion as being complete focused on your in-game objectives without being critical or conscious of the game world or game itself.

And on a side note: I think immersion isn't overused as a term, just misunderstood. I've hear people talk about immersion purely in a graphics point of view, but in reality sound has a huge influence on it too. I mean if Morrowind had much lower quality sound effects and ambience I don't think I'd have finished that game or become so wrapped up in the text.

I voted "I don't look at the horizon often, things can load there. " but that's just because i don't get distracted by it if I'm used to it.

I want to get spoiled by a better view distance, but as of now i vote answer "4"

I can't stand pop-in. I find it very distracting.

It wont stop me from playing though, but I'd rather it was not there.

I have more issues with the 64 frame tick-rate issue that makes things "pop" by rather than a nice smooth transition. You really notice it on the outer edges of the screen as you pass buildings/rocks/trees/etc. It has made me stop playing at times it's so annoying. I'm hoping this is fixed with the new engine, really really hope!!!

A lot of things goes under immersion. Graphics a lot, because that's how you view everything. Sound obviously as well, because that's how you hear everything. Story also goes under immersion, because that's how things in the game get a meaning.

Anyway, how much I would be bothered by bad graphics, bad view distance or whatever, totally depends on what the game is trying to do.
A game that tries to look nice and believable, but fails pretty big somewhere on the way, is bad.
A game that is meant to look bad and simple, and succeds doing so, is good. Mario and Braid are great examples.

Graphics have no effect on my ability to immerse myself into something. Sometimes I think the current generation of gamers had their imaginations double tapped at birth or something if they need this many crutches to immerse themselves in a game. Using your definition of immersion, I was fully immersed in Zork, Oregon Trail, Might and Magic 1, final fantasy 1-9, ultima 3-7 etc. And I have gone back and played quite a few of those games and I still get immersed in them. I never even noticed the fog in morrowind I was so immersed in the game, I have played Oblivion on setting low to high and my immersion was not impacted. all the graphics really do is effect my initial impression before I start to actually play the game, I don't really even notice them from that point on good or bad.

Yeah this is a good point as well. Imo the atmosphere of both Morrowind (and the story too, for Morrowind's case) and Oblivion was so big and good and you barely thought how things looked. I never realized textures were low-res in Oblivion until I saw the mod QTP3. That's one of the things I dislike about finding out so much about Skyrim now. Some screens look pretty bad imo. And since it's only that we have to judge, I personally tend to care more about that - graphics.

What gives a game amazing atmosphere is difficult to answer. But for Oblivion I think it was a lot thanks to Jeremy Soule's soundtracks and the feeling of the Empire being under its biggest threat ever, and that you had this cool open world for you to explore. For Morrowind I think it was a lot becuase of the really really amazing lore and main story, as well as Jeremy Soule's music once again, combined with how people treated you in the game (as this stranger).

If there are two things that Bethesda has managed to become the best at it's freedom and atmosphere.

Well, honestly? The console hardware technology just isn't there yet.

Games are going to have pop-in textures unless they're linear. It's just how things are right now. Maybe things will be better when the next era of consoles release.

You either get really nice graphics and some longer load times/texture pop-in, or you get lower quality graphics for smoother graphics.

Either way, gameplay is untouched.

As far as immersion goes, that's works differently for everyone so I can't really comment besides saying that texture pop in doesn't really bother me, linearity does however. If I see a path, cave, road, etc but there's just an invisible barrier or a wheelcart blocking it (dragon age 2, im looking at you), that's silly to me. New Vegas had invisible walls up the wazoo, and that's why I traded it in for $9...

I get used to graphics. They are icing on the cake to me but I really couldn't care less and it wouldn't affect my "immersion" if they were N64-like.

best example of pop-in I can think of with no mods in oblivion, is when you travel from Weye towards fanascul, just make that trek and watch the entire ayleid ruin pop up out of the water. That there is the worst example of pop in.

I totally forgot to mention story, I supposed it's a given. Anyway, I'd agree with the music completely. Oblivion and Morrowind had some really beautiful orchestrations and I feel like when I was traveling they really held the world together. What I'm really looking forward to is the new dungeon tracks that are sure to come with Skyrim. I'm sure most people don't notice them but I enjoy listening to a game's ambiance to get a feel for how the devs intended the game to feel.

Coming back to view distance I'm kind of expecting they use a combination of fog and terrain to mask distance. I do hope for some really expansive views on cliff-sides or near bodies of water as well.

Who actually thinks they are in a game?

Depends on what you mean. I don't think I am having a psychological breakdown or anything. Despite my earlier comments I will use a graphics based example. If I really get into a game where you can fall a good distance I get the same floating stomach sensation I get on roller coasters especially the big drop style ones when falling off a cliff or whatever in the game. On an intellectual level I am still aware that I am playing a game, but my emotions and senses have got so involved in the experience that it can trigger reactions. I can get similar effects from a good book, games jump start me into that mode much quicker and easier though.