» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:09 pm i want to try to keep it to one thread because other threads seem to lose steam after a while, i just want to keep people talking.
Many of the members of this forum have been debating the implementation of immersive game-play elements.
some are for the option, such as a hardcoe mode like in Fallout New Vegas, or old features from previous tes games like daggerfall and morrowind.
Im taking arguments from both current and old threads.
also i am making reference to the GI article that revealed some of the game.
remember that even though the article revealed alot bethesda has not shown us anything yet. only a glimpse i think, they love to toy with us :biggrin:
and what of what is posted here is speculation and suggestion, so keep the flames low and the trolling to a minimum.
[-survival-
eating drinking sleeping disease injury temperature encumbrance
the argument here is simple, people who enjoy role-playing their characters like to be challenged to keep their characters alive. we have seen this before in FONV's hardcoe mode, which
had you struggling for water and medical attention as much as possible, to see this in the elder scrolls setting would be wonderful and give it massive replay value
from a post i made today friday jan-14 2k11
Spoiler
i was thinking maybe debuffing penalty or reward if you dont eat enough or drink enough or if you eat too much, also some visual "heads up im hungry"
food
penalty and buffs
your character will begin to change his build, like in GTA san andreas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCGkLSeFKA4
if only this game had char-gen
if you want a leaner character you eat sparingly and your character will be thin, he will suffer a hit to his stamina and endurance, but his agility/athletics and maybe his intellect will improve. maybe some minor resistances to other areas.
but if he eats alot, he will GAIN weight and will slow down, but he will also be more damage resistant and frost resistant. increased damage with melee and can carry more.
too fat or too thin is bad for your characters reputation, and npc may react differently.
see the link above for why its bad to be too heavy, you cant fly a jet-pack XD
or vice versa, if your too skinny you may be denied that position in the imperial legion, too twiggy to wear that armor.
this is more role-playing, but would be cool and immersive
as for drinking, that would be needed to keep yourself energetic and healthy. if you dont drink then you are more clumsy and its easier to get sick.
that would be enough for me to enjoy. nothing too severe. unless you wish it to be.
i was thinking maybe debuffing penalty or reward if you dont eat enough or drink enough or if you eat too much, also some visual "heads up im hungry"
food
penalty and buffs
your character will begin to change his build, like in GTA san andreas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCGkLSeFKA4
if only this game had char-gen
if you want a leaner character you eat sparingly and your character will be thin, he will suffer a hit to his stamina and endurance, but his agility/athletics and maybe his intellect will improve. maybe some minor resistances to other areas.
but if he eats alot, he will GAIN weight and will slow down, but he will also be more damage resistant and frost resistant. increased damage with melee and can carry more.
too fat or too thin is bad for your characters reputation, and npc may react differently.
see the link above for why its bad to be too heavy, you cant fly a jet-pack XD
or vice versa, if your too skinny you may be denied that position in the imperial legion, too twiggy to wear that armor.
this is more role-playing, but would be cool and immersive
as for drinking, that would be needed to keep yourself energetic and healthy. if you dont drink then you are more clumsy and its easier to get sick.
that would be enough for me to enjoy. nothing too severe. unless you wish it to be.
skyrim could take this a few steps further with a need to keep yourself warm and out of the rain, the colder you get you have a risk of getting a debuff or a more fatal symptom of the harsh weather. also the longer you stay in the rain or snow you get a bigger fatigue penalty, and maybe the water may weigh your equipment down giving you an encumbrance hit.
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1154947-developping-the-survival-exploration-gameplay/
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-Weather, seasons -
i dont know enough about the individual aspects of skyrims climate, i have only seen the screenshots- in many of the screens it seems to suggest a diverse landscape with many warm zones. so we know that it is not just a mass of snow and rocks.
we also know that snow is now a dynamic feature, which leads me to believe that the same process of rendering snow may also go into making puddles of water or mud, even falling leaves.
Spoiler
Seasons!
We know that snow is dynamic, meaning that it will act like real snow. It will fall... and stay on the ground. It won't magically disappear through everything.
This means that if we get seasons, winter would actually act like winter! Areas where there are no snow would have snow... and water would turn to ice?
For autumn we could get some sort of blend shader that changes leaves to orange/yellow. Leaves could also start falling
For spring nature starts to come alive again. More birds and wildlife start to appear. Leaves start to grow.
For summer life is at its fullest. There's much less snow, if any in most southern and "middle" areas. Forests are lush.
For all seasons a color grading feature would be a must. This could easily be done through the weather or something.
What do you think?
Do you want them to be included?
Do you think they're already included?
In this thread there is also a poll about... well, what you think about seasons. Want them or not?
Personally I think it would be awesome. Plain and simply awesome
We know that snow is dynamic, meaning that it will act like real snow. It will fall... and stay on the ground. It won't magically disappear through everything.
This means that if we get seasons, winter would actually act like winter! Areas where there are no snow would have snow... and water would turn to ice?
For autumn we could get some sort of blend shader that changes leaves to orange/yellow. Leaves could also start falling
For spring nature starts to come alive again. More birds and wildlife start to appear. Leaves start to grow.
For summer life is at its fullest. There's much less snow, if any in most southern and "middle" areas. Forests are lush.
For all seasons a color grading feature would be a must. This could easily be done through the weather or something.
What do you think?
Do you want them to be included?
Do you think they're already included?
In this thread there is also a poll about... well, what you think about seasons. Want them or not?
Personally I think it would be awesome. Plain and simply awesome
some people say that the seasons may just be impractical and just there to pretty up the environment.
but that is not the case.
Spoiler
let me put this in perspective from not just a visual, but a ecology and economy point of view.
scripting the npc behavior and the wildlife would be awesome.
-in the summer the leaves would be green as usual, animals would be very active. clear blue or partially cloudy sky. it rarely rains in the lowlands but the mountains still get some snowfall.
all people are hard at work. farmers are busy tending crops and the cities are very active.
-in the fall, leaves fall, rain comes more often and it is more overcast. it begins to cool down and animals are less active as they prepare for the winter, predators are common but prefer the safety of the wilds, birds are flying south. people are stocking up on supplies and their are many harvest festival.
-in winter snow is common everywhere, only evergreen trees have leaves. the rest are bare. snowstorms happen more often and blizzards are a real threat in the higher climate. animals are rare in the wilderness, predators are more aggressive. some of the more "cold creatures" begin to wander into territory that is normally inaccessible. travelers are less common and people are staying to the cities and more protected travel routs.
-spring, leaves begin to bud and wildlife returns to the norm/calm, its much safer to wander now, the rivers are now rapids because of snow melt. for a month it rains a'lot
[skyrim equivalent of may]. when its sunny that is when the world is most alive. the people are enjoying feasts and the bars are full of cheery conversations and music. most work appears in the spring
i dont know if all of this is feasible, but damn wouldn't that make this game believable.
scripting the npc behavior and the wildlife would be awesome.
-in the summer the leaves would be green as usual, animals would be very active. clear blue or partially cloudy sky. it rarely rains in the lowlands but the mountains still get some snowfall.
all people are hard at work. farmers are busy tending crops and the cities are very active.
-in the fall, leaves fall, rain comes more often and it is more overcast. it begins to cool down and animals are less active as they prepare for the winter, predators are common but prefer the safety of the wilds, birds are flying south. people are stocking up on supplies and their are many harvest festival.
-in winter snow is common everywhere, only evergreen trees have leaves. the rest are bare. snowstorms happen more often and blizzards are a real threat in the higher climate. animals are rare in the wilderness, predators are more aggressive. some of the more "cold creatures" begin to wander into territory that is normally inaccessible. travelers are less common and people are staying to the cities and more protected travel routs.
-spring, leaves begin to bud and wildlife returns to the norm/calm, its much safer to wander now, the rivers are now rapids because of snow melt. for a month it rains a'lot
[skyrim equivalent of may]. when its sunny that is when the world is most alive. the people are enjoying feasts and the bars are full of cheery conversations and music. most work appears in the spring
i dont know if all of this is feasible, but damn wouldn't that make this game believable.
Lets take it a step further. Seasons are not just a pretty visual to improve immersion. Imagine seasons in Radiant Story's hands.
Farming work would be served well by seasonal gathering, for example.
A harvest festival in the Heartfire with dancing in the streets or any number of holidays the lore is already rich with would add flavor to day to day life. Better yet, imagine that a leaders of Riverwood begging for your help, certain that Goblins will decend upon their village as they have every Frostfall, intent on stealing the year's havest. Stand along side the villagers and drive back the threat... Or maybe you take a pro-active approach, seeking out the Goblin cave and eradicating them before they ever begin their own twisted harvest.
Imagine rare and powerful alchemidic ingredients that only grow in certain seasons in certain places.
A Whimsical quest that involves pair two star crossed lovers would surely be more likely to occur in the spring, while a case of bitter revenge might take place on dark and stormy night.
This yearly cycle doesn't need to be shown a dozen times across a full game. Even one or two years would add an incredible amount of diversity to your game. Perhaps you never even traveled to Riverwood in Heartfire, perhaps you passed in Second Seed, bought some seasonal goods and moved on, having no idea how much help they would need in the coming months.
While it's fair to assume that Skyrim will continue to have Neverland seasons with the locations themselves showing off different seasonal effects, it's certainly a beautiful thought that doesn't end with just the beauty of the landscape.
Farming work would be served well by seasonal gathering, for example.
A harvest festival in the Heartfire with dancing in the streets or any number of holidays the lore is already rich with would add flavor to day to day life. Better yet, imagine that a leaders of Riverwood begging for your help, certain that Goblins will decend upon their village as they have every Frostfall, intent on stealing the year's havest. Stand along side the villagers and drive back the threat... Or maybe you take a pro-active approach, seeking out the Goblin cave and eradicating them before they ever begin their own twisted harvest.
Imagine rare and powerful alchemidic ingredients that only grow in certain seasons in certain places.
A Whimsical quest that involves pair two star crossed lovers would surely be more likely to occur in the spring, while a case of bitter revenge might take place on dark and stormy night.
This yearly cycle doesn't need to be shown a dozen times across a full game. Even one or two years would add an incredible amount of diversity to your game. Perhaps you never even traveled to Riverwood in Heartfire, perhaps you passed in Second Seed, bought some seasonal goods and moved on, having no idea how much help they would need in the coming months.
While it's fair to assume that Skyrim will continue to have Neverland seasons with the locations themselves showing off different seasonal effects, it's certainly a beautiful thought that doesn't end with just the beauty of the landscape.
we have radiant-AI and radiant-story. these are bethesda tech that have been developed over the years and may well be perfected by the time we see any gameplay footage.
so to see the tech handle AI one a seasonal scale with many different behavior habits is not that far fetched
the concept is not alien to the series. Seasons have always been in the elder scrolls calendar but haven't physically been seen since daggerfall. which was a little ahead of its time in everything except graphics.
It is there! It just needs to be implemented in a way that complements game-play.
one problem i heard about seasons is the fact that even if they are in the game the average player may only see a few before they beat the story and are done.
i suggested that since skyrim takes place 200 years after the previous game, and that it has its own culture and tradition, that have its own calendar and count its days differently. days may be longer, and there may be fewer days in a month. this also makes sense because of its position on the map, being the northernmost province it may have longer or shorter days depending on the season.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
-Travel-
This is the biggest argument i think.
it is the biggest problem that i personally have with the recent game, the travel system.
-in oblivion fast travel felt like an exploit and a blessing to the travelling adventurer. some felt it to be great that they could haul off 400 pounds of loot 15 miles to their lair in the blink of an eye. others felt like they should have had to walk or find someone to take them to home, but there was nowhere to go because nobody would take you
. -in morrowind they had a travel network of npc's that offered you a service.
Mages guild, Travel by animal, boat. Chimmer ruins.
pay your gold and travel within a certain distance to an area near your destination. also there were spells like mark and recall that allowed you to go back to any location instantly that you marked.
From what it seems, fast travel is going to be in once again. I haven't read all the article so I don't know about a transportation system. However, I haven't seen anyone mentioning it that it will be in the game.
There have been a lot of discussion before about "If you don't like fast travel, then don't use it!". I just wanna point out that this thread isn't about that or anything similar.
This thread is meant so that Bethesda easily can see what we want and why we want it. The best way to aid in this is that we only argument for our own opinion. Don't bash what other people say. Just put up a few points why you think your opinion is the right one. If not, we risk ending up in a wild discussion where people flame and don't stick to argumentation.
In short, vote in the poll and post a comment what you think should be done, and why you think it. It would be best if we don't bash what other people say. Just stick to what you want to be in the game and keep a proper discussion.
Here's my proposal of what Bethesda should change before the release:
1. Make fast traveling OPTIONAL. So that everyone (Yes, even those on consoles!) can turn it off/on easily.
Why: It doesn't hurt those who like fast travel and it can help those who don't like fast travel.
2. Implement a (immersive) transportation system, kind of like how it was in Morrowind. You can travel to different cities by using boats (and perhaps something that replace silt striders), Mages guild teleportation, intervention spells. You can also use mark/recall to mark your current position and then "recall" back to it later.
Why: So that those who don't like fast travel can still have some immersive way of transporting themselves. It gives you some boundaries and some opportunities. It can also be useful for those who like fast travel, since it allows for more possibillities, like mark/recall.
There have been a lot of discussion before about "If you don't like fast travel, then don't use it!". I just wanna point out that this thread isn't about that or anything similar.
This thread is meant so that Bethesda easily can see what we want and why we want it. The best way to aid in this is that we only argument for our own opinion. Don't bash what other people say. Just put up a few points why you think your opinion is the right one. If not, we risk ending up in a wild discussion where people flame and don't stick to argumentation.
In short, vote in the poll and post a comment what you think should be done, and why you think it. It would be best if we don't bash what other people say. Just stick to what you want to be in the game and keep a proper discussion.
Here's my proposal of what Bethesda should change before the release:
1. Make fast traveling OPTIONAL. So that everyone (Yes, even those on consoles!) can turn it off/on easily.
Why: It doesn't hurt those who like fast travel and it can help those who don't like fast travel.
2. Implement a (immersive) transportation system, kind of like how it was in Morrowind. You can travel to different cities by using boats (and perhaps something that replace silt striders), Mages guild teleportation, intervention spells. You can also use mark/recall to mark your current position and then "recall" back to it later.
Why: So that those who don't like fast travel can still have some immersive way of transporting themselves. It gives you some boundaries and some opportunities. It can also be useful for those who like fast travel, since it allows for more possibillities, like mark/recall.
Spoiler
i want it like morrowind, but with many more options.
Boats
Mammoths [instead of silt striders]
teleport,
buy or RENT a horse [or other mount]
carriages and caravans.
and an option for fast travel for those who REALLY FEEL ITS NEEDED....gosh.
Boats
Mammoths [instead of silt striders]
teleport,
buy or RENT a horse [or other mount]
carriages and caravans.
and an option for fast travel for those who REALLY FEEL ITS NEEDED....gosh.
_
Here are my reasons why both versions should be in the game.
Oblivion's fast travel should still be in the game because from a character and time in game stand point you don't just "warp" there like you cast recall. It's like in Daggerfall, time actually passes in the game world, your character technically still makes that journey. You as a player just chose to skip experiencing that. Cause honestly, going from place A to B can get tedious. Especially for people who don't have a lot of time to devote to playing in the first place.
Morrowind's fast travel should also be implemented because it would be a more "immersive" form of fast travel for most players and it would be a way to get to your destination faster. So, let's say you go to the map and use fast travel from pint A to point B. It takes you a week in game time to get there. If you would have used the Horse and carriage at point A to get to point B then it would take maybe three in game days. And if you want you could have the option of just riding along like in Red Dead Redemption or -going to sleep- which gets you the same result as map fast traveling. The difference would be the from town fast travel immersive system would be able to take you to places you have not been. Whereas the from map fast travel would only let you go to places you already discovered.
Those are my hypothetical gameplay and roleplay reasons why both should be implemented.
And before anyone says "Oh, having two systems is pointless, why not just have Oblivion fast travel." The answer is, this is a Role Playing game. Everything does not have to have a specific gameplay reason for existing if it helps you believe the world is real and alive.
Honestly though, Red Dead Redemption has made me fall in love with driving a horse and carriage. PLEASE implement these Bethesda.
Oblivion's fast travel should still be in the game because from a character and time in game stand point you don't just "warp" there like you cast recall. It's like in Daggerfall, time actually passes in the game world, your character technically still makes that journey. You as a player just chose to skip experiencing that. Cause honestly, going from place A to B can get tedious. Especially for people who don't have a lot of time to devote to playing in the first place.
Morrowind's fast travel should also be implemented because it would be a more "immersive" form of fast travel for most players and it would be a way to get to your destination faster. So, let's say you go to the map and use fast travel from pint A to point B. It takes you a week in game time to get there. If you would have used the Horse and carriage at point A to get to point B then it would take maybe three in game days. And if you want you could have the option of just riding along like in Red Dead Redemption or -going to sleep- which gets you the same result as map fast traveling. The difference would be the from town fast travel immersive system would be able to take you to places you have not been. Whereas the from map fast travel would only let you go to places you already discovered.
Those are my hypothetical gameplay and roleplay reasons why both should be implemented.
And before anyone says "Oh, having two systems is pointless, why not just have Oblivion fast travel." The answer is, this is a Role Playing game. Everything does not have to have a specific gameplay reason for existing if it helps you believe the world is real and alive.
Honestly though, Red Dead Redemption has made me fall in love with driving a horse and carriage. PLEASE implement these Bethesda.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Map & Compass
So the map seems to worry some people, i really have no suggestions as how to improve it, it was built with a console and controller in mind...so help me with this one. i gave some options in the poll.
someone else suggested that the map could be purchased for each region and reveals a bit about the area, but as you travel you slowly reveal more map markers. a compass is used only as a directional tool.
what do you think?
there is alot i left out, but thats because there is alot here already. if you feel something else is needed then feel free to post here.
special thanks to Hlvr, Sycandre and others for helping develop these ideas.
