LOL.

Joking aside, I'd like to point out that the word 'Immersion' is undestood differently by different groups of people. The description you gave is that of the people I dub "hyper-realists". Other possible definitions:

• Immersion in a role - The kind purist RPG fans like, where immersion simply means how well the strengths, weaknesses and morality of the character being played are made essential in the game. In this context, you'll see comments like "I can pick a lock with one hand tied behind my back as a barbarian? Not immersive".
  
• Immersion in the story - How well the game's story is presented and how accurately the lore is adhered to.
  
• Immersion in the game as an idealised world - This one may seem strange, but some people interpret the term 'immersion' as the ability to do in the game what you CAN'T do in real-life, and how well this "fantasy realism" is implemented. Given that TES does in fact take place in a fantasy setting, this kind of interpretation has some credit.

I hate penalty driven hardcoe necessities. That's a kind of sadomaschism. It is even against realism, since as many mentioned in this thread, you won't die without 3 meals or 8 hours sleep a day. Still, these people sell the idea in the name of realism and immersion.

Eating gives us energy and pleasure. If design is about eating/sleeping related bonuses then everybody would like to eat for that extra bonus in stats. Then it would provide immersion. So I'm in the opinion that this could be implemented properly, not as *hardcoe*. For example I want regenerating health as seen in real life for the extension of such a system. How's that for hardcoe?


Immersionists are escapists. They are escaping reality.

Apologies, I missed your first edit where this was included.

And it's not bad. It's moderately interesting, it has some roots for believability (though particular points of this particular example could be debated). Altogether, here is a good example of using direct information of how the fantasy differs to construe an argument for why things might not operate like the real.

Of course, the only caveat is that which you mention yourself, that things like burning calories, the need for a cooling system, etc, still fall back on the principle of filling in from reality. Which doesn't harm your particular anolysis of bosmer eating habits in the slightest, it only points out that even on a macro level of fantastically filling the gaps for unspecified facets, things still revert to the system I've been outlining. The problem that I see with the attempt to subvert that, namely the speculation of magical involvement in the scheme, is that the subversion is where roots for believability and the interesting factor begin to drop off. It essentially boils down to "A Wizard Did it," (or alternatively, 'An Intangible or philosophically incommensurable force did it') which is one extreme of magical explanation that should always be avoided. Notice how magical or weird occurrences in TES are rarely without intelligible mythic significance. Admittedly, I know you were merely coming up with this off the top of your head, and that given more time something more creative and interesting might've taken its place, but until that time, things remain as they are, and even with that time, I still uphold the Occam's Razor. For instance, it's a lot more plausible to assert weird things for races like Bosmer, Orcs, Khajiit, Argonians, etc, because they have explicit informed differences that allow such speculation. The same direct uncertainty is present with the human races, yet they lack the distinct informational differences that the previously mentioned have. Therefore, it's far less controversial to assume reality and a lot harder to come up with a persuasive, interesting, and somewhat believable counter-view.

Where I really disagree with this paragraph (since we both appear to agree in terms of gameplay consequence) is the assertion that we can't really say anything about things that aren't already in lore or explained by a dev (either leaning towards reality or leaning towards crazy). I would again offer up http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius as a flawless example of something completely fleshed out by a fan through indirect information and not official by any means, yet fleshed out persuasively and with believable support to where it has become the consensus.

immersion != realism

I don't understand why so many people claim that immersion =/= as realism. Of course it's not. Why the hell would anyone claim they are the same? They aren't. I thought we all knew that immersion is what happens when you watch a horror film and feel the suspense of the characters. Immersion is when you feel like you're actually in Tamriel. Immersion is when you're so svcked into the game that the world around you feels believable. Book's can immerse the readers imagination with detail and wonder. (The Hobbit, Narnia, etc) Realism isn't immersion, but there is no denying that realism certainty helps become immersed in the world. As I said before, I became more immersed in Morrowind because I was so fascinated with the library in Vivec. All that story and culture coming to life when playing the game. Realism, personifications with NPCs, different political ideals and betrayal...these are things that immerse me into the game.

Problem is, we keep seeing all sorts of threads (on various game forums) saying things like "I need to see my feet for better immersion!", "I need to have to sleep every day for better immersion", " It's unrealistic that a bullet to the head doesn't kill people instantly! This kills my immersion!" "I shouldn't be able to run as fast as a deer, it messes up immersion!" etc, etc, etc, etc

So many threads, on so many topics (many of them touching on "realism") that include people dropping "Immersion" all over the place.

Perhaps little things like that take them out of the game? I don't understand the "seeing my feet" thing. That's actually hilarious. "Wow. I'm surrounded by cliff sides with birds flying in the air. As I peer down the waterfall I-wait. Where are my feet? I don't feel the connection any more!!" :facepalm:

This just proves what I said. Different people understand the word differently. That, or that some people are ignorant idiots :unsure: . There, I said it. As if we didn't know that already.

:)


http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1171946-i-want-to-see-my-legs/

I blame Yahtzee's Zero Punctuation. Ever since his Oblivion review, people have been using the word "immersion" like it's a new swearword they've learned. I'm pretty sure half of the people here doesn't even know what the word means.
Also you can see in my sig, that I'm really getting annoyed by this...

On the other hand, I generally like things that helps immersion, but I hate how some people see immersion. One thing that still boggles me is how loading screens and ingame texts saying "Loading Area" considered unimmersive. Maybe it's just me, but the fact that the game stops to load is more annoying than the fact that it tells me why it stopped. And if that annoys people, how come the main menu is not considered unimmersive, or the fact that you have to watch the whole game trough a monitor?

are you talking about cell change loading screens when your running around or when you go from an interior to an exterior. the first ones are annoying and one of the first mods that came out for oblivion was to get rid of it. as for the second im not sure why anyone would have an issue with it. i will say that resident evil had the best loading screens with the doors slowly opening though, i wish more games would do that but its not up on my list of necessities.

[quote name='itsgrady' timestamp='1299555720' post='17294626']
OK Folks!

Well here is a forum experiment that hopefully can turn out to be a creative, fun addition to the forums. Here goes.

I am going to take ideas I have posted before, as well as a few new ones, and start a thread about.....Thats right. Immersion. Given the immense popularity of the word when referring to TES, there seem to be quite a few people that dont share the enthusiasm. I'll admit Im not

So that said, I am going to post my ideas for 'immersion' They are ideas to make the game more........ 'immerseable'(?). Feel free to post your ideas for 'immersion', serious or not. Or, simply post ideas for what you think could make the world more 'realistic'. Obviously my ideas are meant to be taken as a joke, however feel free to post serious ideas as well. But please keep an open mind. Hopefully, some of this will make people realize that immersion isnt always their best, life long chum. In fact, sometimes immersion feels like.....well. Real life. And sometimes real life aint so pretty. And all joking aside, its nice to see realistic, well thought ideas that add to the realism of our in game world.



:thumbsdown:wow dude grow up

Man this thread is so ill-conceived and badly thought out I almost feel sorry for the OP. Wrong forum buddy. Your ideas about immersion, games and real life boil down to nothing.

I don't think this is has so much to do with the elder scrolls, but the fact that it is starting to appear more and more often in newer generation first person games to the point that people expect it to. And when it isn't there, it can throw you back if you're used to it. It would be kind of like getting a modern RPG that was full text and no VA. Anyone with any history with RPGs is probably used to reading lengthy pop up texts. But these days VA has replaced a lot of it.

Personally, I don't think not seeing the body in first person would break immersion (for me anyway). I do think that seeing them has the potential to make the player more immersed in their character (not necessarily the game world though).

When you look around in most First Person Games its technically your torso moving not just you head. If I lean forward to look down a waterfall I'm not going to see my feet unless I was falling down said waterfall.



Anyways clearly only a select few on this forum know what Immersion is. The OP definitely doesn't neither do the people he is referring to in his post.
Graphics, good dialog, quality sound, good animations, good AI, etc make for good Immersion, not real world elements.

Far Cry 2 is one example of good immersion and it has no sleep, food or water needs.

How can one ever be oblivious to the fact that they are staring at a TV or computer monitor and are controlling a separate character with a game controller or a keyboard/mouse? I love freedom and allowing choice as in the real world, but the word "immersion" is far too overused around here, in my opinion, and I don't know what, exactly, is meant by it.

Immersion is the attempt to make people forget that they are staring at a monitor. The Real World had nothing to do with Immersion, Immersion is an attempt at making the video game world seem more believable, NOT, and I repeat NOT LIKE THE REAL WORLD,

Still, how can one ever be oblivious to the fact that they are staring at a TV or monitor and are using artificial keys, buttons, mouses, and anolog sticks to control the character alongside loading screens, limited interaction capabilities, and game saving.

Welp, your right, HOWEVER, after playing video games for a while, WASD and the mouse had become second nature to me, and sometimes get to involved in a game that I start yelling at enemies, gasping when I get shot and stuff, good fun. Essentially I was immersed, I'd forgotten I was controlling a character in a game. It usually never lasts over a minute, but its one hell of a minute.

Games won't truly immerse until its like the Matrix.

Thank you yet again

I wonder what would happen if they completely censored the word "immersion" from the forums the same as swear words. Perhaps then people might actually come up with a meaningful reason as to why their idea has any merit to improving the experience or why someone else's idea takes away from it rather than just dropping the I-bomb.

I wonder what would happen if they censored all the cynical, ill-tempered users on the forums the same way they would topics restricted in the User Agreement. Perhaps then they would seek therapy.

Is that supposed to be directed at me? if so how is that cynical or ill-tempered and why would I need therapy?

Its matter of whether or not they use the word properly. Good Graphics increase immersion. Radiant AI increases immersion. Essentially TES series have done the most for immersion.
Features such hardcoe mode do nothing to add immersion, in some aspects they break immersion, by separating the player from his/her character.
When my characters gets hungry, I(me the player outside of the game) don't, unless its coincidence. Same deal with water or sleep.
When I look at an epic landscape, stop and say "Wow." I'm immersed.

I wasn't being serious (although it would be hilarious if they did) I know some people do use it in the proper context. But I do find many people to simply see something and say it's not immersive and therefore not a good idea, or likewise say it is immersive and therefore is a good idea without any actual weight behind the argument except the word immersion.
Take for example hardcoe mode, I may find it adds an extra bit of challenge in that I have to provide certain necessities for my character or suffer consequences that is my opinion (and not necessarily right I know) but you on the other hand say it does not add to the immersion and is not a good idea (this isn't an accurate representation of what you said it's just an example so don't get mad please) where as you could say hardcoe mode is not a good idea because it is tedious(or some such arguement against it that does not involve immersion alone)