I guess my question isn't aimed at any game and player, but I am most interested in Fallout 4 at the moment. And I read this term a bit (immersion) on this forum, so I have to ask.

What makes Fallout (or any games) immersive. What causes gamers to play games as if they are the character on the screen.

I can't recall any game that I've played since I started playing them with Ultima II that I've felt "I was" the protagonist, personally. I've never felt like I was the actor, but more like the director. I don't feel I'm there if I'm looking into a computer monitor. If we had technology say, like a holodeck from STNG, then I might be suitably immersed. Until the day this happens, at a reasonably cost, I can't understand "immersion" as a valid quality of video/computer games.

Maybe a better term for it for me is "involvement" in the story or having a vested interest in the character(s) I am controlling in a game. I may have an emotional reaction to the character(s) or the story that unfolds within the game. If something great happens, I feel happy; if tragedy strikes I feel sad. But I don't really feel it is happening to me.

Does immersion make the game better for you , than maybe for me because of it?

Immersion is restricted by the story the developer has created, it breaks whenever the path leads in a direction you don't like. I suppose no Main Quest, but just an open world where the story unfolds, due to your action or inaction, would be ideal. I don't think that has ever happened in games. It would be like the show Seinfeld where Jerry and George pitch a show about nothing, it's just like real life, nothing happens!

As you can see, I have a hard time wrapping my head around immersion.

What does it mean to you?

For me I guess it is the fact that I can make the character look like me, and it ties me to him a little more than one where I am forced to be someone else. For FO4, since I am a father in RL, I think it will add that extra layer.

Immersion requires either ignorance or massive amounts of suspension of disbelief. There are several reasons for that; first we have technological limitations (poor graphics, poor physics, poor AI, loading screens...). And then we have lack of authenticity (Bethesda for example never learnt how melee weapons are supposed to be used and it shows when you play Skyrim or any other TES game).

Talking about authenticity, the worst enemy of immersion is probably expertise; if you happen to be knowledable about a topic that is portrayed in a videogame, you can basically forget about being immersed. The realization that 'they are doing it wrong' is going to nag you to no end.

immersion is about making you feel like you are a part of the world, or at least your character is. if the world simply cannot be without you then it feels wrong, in skyrim the world blatantly revolves around you and that feeling ruins RPGs imo

I think immersion IMO is a silly thing. People place to much on it, for me the fact that I know I'm playing a video game for some simple entertainment limits that hugely.

When I think of immersion I think of hood books, where I'm building that world as I read words. Putting voices to characters etc. Games it's that much more difficult as it's all laid out.

Of course it feels wrong in a game where you are the only person who can save the world.

The moment you start going against that grain, things start to clash, but that makes complete sense considering you are given the role of the ultimate hero. You can choose not to play that role, but obviously that's going to cause a problem because you're essentially playing the game incorrectly.

I'm not saying RPing as whoever you want is wrong, but trying to go against the plot of a story and complaining that the place in which the story takes place seems off isn't a valid complaint.

RPGs are role playing games, but not every RPG allows you to take on any role you please. In Bethesda style RPGs the role you are given to play is often that of the guy who always saves the day.

You're more than welcome to ignore that, but it's still a game about a hero who saves the day.

I guess the difference is between whether you play the character you have created or if you play the character as if it is you.

This is an applicable argument to me. Ever since I watched/read up on the true tactics and mannerisms of medieval fighters, I found that I constantly judged whether certain aspects of a "medieval" game are authentic. It's a barrier to immersion of which I am conscious, even if I unconsciously erect this barrier.

I guess another question I have: Is immersion necessary for you to enjoy a game?

Nope 馃憤

Immersion is completely subjective, you can't pin down what makes something immersive objective.

All immersion means is that it draws you in, that you're nailed to the game, that you thought you played for 40 minutes and look at the clock and see that 2 hours have passed.

That's immersion.

And there are so many variables that count in towards whether or not a game is immersive that you can't pinpoint one particular thing and say "this will make it more immersive".

Skyrim is a game many people find immersive. I on the other hand struggle to keep my interest in the game and never get absorbed into the game I'm playing.

Whereas the older Fallout games some people couldn't get into but me? I get svcked right into them and get lost in their worlds with ease.

Art style, art design, gameworld, characters, writing, story, combat mechanics, UI, menu screens, sounds, music, atmosphere, difficulty, lore, gameplay smoothness/clunkiness.

All of these things have tons of variables to them.

And all of them matter, every single one of them, for a player to be immersed into a game.

It's for that reason that I can't be immersed into FNV again, no matter how much I like the writing, characters, quests and locations of the game.

Too many variables I find a fault with, and that shatters any attempt at immersing myself into the gameworld.

My point is; Immersion is pointless to discuss. Why bother discussing something that ultimately is completely subjective and means nothing to anyone but yourself?

Now, is immersion important for me? Yes. I play games for escapism, if I ain't escaping reality then the game isn't for me.

I think what makes an individuals game immersive will vary. Some people get caught up in story more, while others get pulled in more by visual elements. Personally, for me, an open world that provides a lot of freedom makes a game immersive. A good story also helps make it entertaining.

Things that may break immersion for me would be things that are just completely out of place in the setting, like completely bizarre characters or any plot twist that would just seem impossible. Tabitha, from Fallout New Vegas would be a good example of an immersion breaking character for me. A lot of people like that kind of thing, but to me it seemed a bit too silly.

The voiced characters in the game is probably going to be a huge immersion breaker for a lot of people. Having a defined voice for a character takes away a huge first person element and makes it more third person. It adds a cinematic effect.

I never play "myself" in games; I've tried but it just feels awkward. I create many different types of characters, and like you I'm more the director than the actor, but "immersion" is still important for me. I suppose things that make the game world seem "real" are immersive - and I don't mean real as in "the same as our world" but real in the sense that the world seems alive. Immersion-breaking for me are usually things that don't blend smoothly into the world.

One thing that is immersive for me in Fallout is the radio feature. The pip-boy is a good in-game explanation for UI features such as quest arrow and "point of interest" markers, that otherwise would be a bit immersion breaking for me. Other things that are immersive for me personally are the clutter, how people have set up makeshift homes in the wasteland, the remnants of old world society everywhere and how people use them when building their new world but sometimes in a very different way than originally intended.

As for things that break immersion, one thing that breaks immerson for me are the generic NPCs such as "King's gang member", "Goodsprings settler" that have 3 or 4 pre-recorded lines to say and that you can't really interact with.

But immersion breaking isn't always bad. Glitches are immersion breaking features that can enhance the experience for me personally, if they are more funny than annoying.

Immersion for me is wether I feel like I'm in control of the character's actions, choices and outcomes in ways that dont feel scripted or linear. It also comes from how deep you can personalize your character to fit what persona you want to make. So far Fo4 is somewhat enhancing that, but it still needs more options. Nothing for me beats SR2's character creator where you can even select the type of walk, stationary movement, walking animation, body type, personality, and basically what ever is enough to make your character feel like its yours and not just a decorated template shared by all other players. Its why layered clothing was needed.

Unless we can at least edit the voice for distortion, echo, pitch and tone, one set voice will really ruin everything. Especially if the character's deliveries dont match the responses you would impose onto your character yourself.

Yes, immersion is a very real and palpable thing, some of the very best game experiences I still recall vividly belongs to those moments. Like Doom 2, Half-Life or Morrowind. First person view plays a big part, the rest comes down to how good the game world is crafted and how it interacts with you. Played WoW for 3,5 years and never got immersed in it once, yet played Half-Life for a couple weeks and it blew me away. Then I got Morrowind which blew me away for months. I'd say Bethesda is the only company that can immerse me in their games for long periods of time and that's the main reason I love them all. I'm expecting more of that with FO4.

Even though I also loved FO1 & FO2 & Tactics, that immersion factor isn't there with isometric view.

I have a different view. I don't personally like to use the word "immersive" because the load its been given; but I have found myself more immersed in the first two Fallouts and even Wasteland 1 (plus other games of similiar ilk) than most any of the modern day action RPG's precisely because they didn't go for the "show, don't tell" route but were more archetypal in their depiction of things which, in turn, does a great deal towards letting me interpret the places and situations like I would in a PnP session. It's much easier to neglect the lackings of visual representation that all games have to different degrees, when things are not meant to be taken to the letter and you have your distance from it.

Your character is commanded directly by you in such a good way that you forget that you're not it.

That's why I don't like the new dialogue system they made for Fallout 4. It looks like you're telling your character what to say and then hear it say it again, also, it expresses emotions that may not be precisely what you're feeling.

Immersion was never about making you feel like you're in the game playing as the protagonist. That was an unfortunate misconception created by people who think calling themselves a hardcoe gamer is a bigger accomplishment than anything in their life...

No immersion is making you feel like you're there. You're watching your character, choosing his options, and feel like its all real. Immersion means you forget you're playing a game and feel more like you're watching characters coming alive and you're playing god deciding what happens.

You can't pretend you're in a game. Our brains are too sophisticated for that. Life is one giant roleplay, if you want to develop your personality the place to do that is real life. I'm tired of quirky game mechanics being introduced (like eating ). All they do is make the game cluttered with features that get boring. I'll be in the middle of a mission, completely immersed in the game and a little message pops up in the top left corner "You are hungry", "You need to sleep", "You wet yourself because you didnt use the restroom"... Theres my evidence. These features tend to BREAK immersion, not add to it suggesting immersion and realism are not identical.

If you want immersion, you adapt the quests, characters, armor, and weapons to look like it would in a real post-apocalypse. For example, we don't throw giant Cloud's buster sword in the game, we don't let the players walk around in clean bro-tanks and shorts with hip shoes. We give the player rugged armor and weapons and allow him to discover crazed characters whose mind couldn't handle the chaos. We see quests that cause us to make a decision between two bad options.

For me, the main thing is how much the game requires my attention. You can get immersed in a game like chess. You probably won't feel like you're living in it's world, but you can forget your surroundings, or lose track of time.

New Vegas is probably the most immersive game I've played. It's writing and gameplay are both great. It has a believable world, with intriguing factions, characters and their stories. There's tough choices to make. There's a lot to consider when you're building your character. Dialogue gives you the right questions you wanted to ask, and provides interesting answers. Combat isn't really that complex, but there's preparations to make when venturing inside dungeons: food and water, bullets, condition of your gear, Rad-X, stimpacks and doctor bags, encumbarance. Dangerous encounters keep you on your toes while travelling.

Dark Souls is another game that's immersive for me. If I'm not trying to figure out the lore, or focusing on a tough fight, then I'm constantly thinking and planning gameplay aspects of the game. Boss fights usually got my heart racing, and getting invaded is still terrifying.

The usual immersion breakers for me are excessive hand-holding, poor dialogue choices, noticeable level scaling, unimaginative and frustrating quests, and combat that requires no thought at all.

The way NPCs in Skyrim repeat their introduction lines when you pass them by is the worst. It makes no sense, and on top of that, it's really damn annoying. And pretty much impossible to avoid.

Thanks to all of you, who've taken the time to reply on this thread.

I have learned a lot today, considering that I've been playing computer games since the early 1980's an I've just suddenly understood the immersion thing.

I've been confusing immersion with identification - I think it is about involvement.

Involvement is what I like to get from the games I play. Being surprised, saddened, angered and made happy by events in a game. Immersion helps make these things happen!

Thank you all, again!

'Immersion' does not have to be when you self-insert, playing as yourself.

It is equally possible 3rd person, or as a character other than yourself if the story or world is engaging or 'immersive'.

It's just as possible with a good book and in games it's the equivalent of a 'book you can't put down'...

As the OP can see from the replies, immersion is subjective with different needs for different players.

However, note that in the case for most players, "realism" is not needed for immersion in a game (or movie, play, etc.) because we (as humans) know that we are experiencing a fictional work for the sake of entertainment. We are not trying to immerse ourselves into an authentic simulator of some kid (e.g., a flight simulator, surgical simulator, etc.). This is why "realism" (i.e., being knowledgeable about a subject, element, etc. and having it accurately reproduced) is not needed for entertainment, at least for most people. For those that require it, they are looking at the wrong products and should be looking for authentic training simulators of various kinds.

Example: in the "Making of Skyrim" video, the sound director points out how they attempted to use authentic swordplay sounds for combat audio but the result just did not work, so they reverted to using fake "Hollywood" type effects. Does anyone complain about the lack of authenticity for the combat sounds in Skyrim? No. The sounds are nothing like actual swordplay, but that isn't needed for immersion.

I'm not convinced.

Let me illustrate with the following example: in Skyrim, you can perform a sneak attack on an opponent and, if you fail to kill him, he will start looking for you. If your opponent doesn't manage to find you in...10 seconds I believe? he will stop searching and return to his endeavors as if nothing had happened. You can then perform a second sneak attack and the same story will unfold again. Rinse and repeat until you kill him.

Now I strongly believe that very few people would find the behavior above immersive. Why? Simply because it defies common sense.

In a similar fashion, melee combat in Skyrim defies common sense for any person who has any knowledge about how melee combat is supposed to work.

So I'd say that realism is not needed for immersion...provided that you're not knowledgable about the topics being depicted. If you have such knowledge, then either you shut down your brain or immersion cannot be achieved.

I don't need immersion to enjoy a game, but I do like to be able to immerse myself. Immersion, in my opinion, is always preferable. There's no better feeling that losing yourself in a game; the epitome of escapism. That goes for all mediums of entertainment, really. Doesn't matter if it's a book, a film, a game, or any other work of art - when you immerse yourself, your experience is heightened.

What makes Fallout immersive? I'd say the world. Not just the layout, but the characters and stories happening within this world along with how people in this world react to you; being able to see the mundane or the inconsequential; the ability to do whatever you want and having numerous avenues for a player to be able to do that. If the setting feels alive, it's easy to get immersed. A compelling narrative helps too. In addition, Bethesda places players in the director's seat, so to speak, which allows a player to control their immersion through their actions.

Immersion, to me, means losing yourself in something. I think a way to improve that would be to figure out how to make the world dynamically and realistically react to the actions of a player.

wel taking some BGS games as example, i always found it freaky odd that if you play a argonian in skyrim, they treat you like your still a nord. They are supposed to be oppressed and discriminated as a race, yet whenever i stroll up, everyone wants to be friends with me and acts like im a blond muscular nord.

So obvious breaks in how your character is treated compared to what is normal, is a immersion breaker for me. If in fallout i kill some sods brother, i dont want him acting all happy and fun with me after a speech check, id rather have hime in my face and calling me names for what i did so i have a sense that my actions have consequences.