Lol. Well it defenitely means something to me. Im glad that Im not the only one.

The only universal aspect for creating immersion, is atmosphere. While that takes account for things like writing, art direction, sound, game mechanics, none have to be done specifically with the intent to immerse the player. It's about presenting a believable world first and foremost. Note I said "Believable" not "Realistic".

To what degree of immersion a player feels is very subjective, but it usually focuses on disconnecting the player from the game world as little as possible. Just a quick example, In Mass Effect1, a lot of the loading screens are hidden by elevators, this is a highly under-appreciated technique to keep the player engaged on the game, where in Mass Effect 2, we're treated just with static loading screens, that serve to frequently jar the player out of the experience.

Well, each game seems to give you less and less to do, less skills to master, less clothes to wear, more gender constraints, smaller environments, less weapons to choose from, less dialog, easier quests, simpler directions, less immersion. Each game gets progressively over simplified, with less to do, less to talk about, less less less! In Daggerfall you could learn different languages, become weremonsters, and travel for days on end. In Morriwnd, you could ask anyone a question about anything you've heard of, having a skill actually meant something, like having a high speech skill, actually gave you a better chance of persuading someone, there were around 20 different types of weapons, and at least five different varieties of each of those weapons to choose from. Spells could actually do something helpful, like allow you to travel faster, or to otherwise unreachable areas, cities weren't fenced off and in tiny cells, you actually got to explore the island instead of fast traveling to a magic compass point, and every mission you did didn't affect the fate of the world. Sometimes you could actually just pick up a believable odd job, not a "Save the world from necromancers" Or "Save the world from Demons", The missions were flexible and had a broad range of options and there were more than one way to progress through a guild. You could work for a crooked dunmer and collect money for the guild, or you could help out a friend and collect flowers while learning the roads of Vvardenfell. Oblivion Introduced a brand new level of homogenous though, it was a great leap really, the took out about 5 skills and combined a bunch that don't even go together (Would a knife fighter know how to wield a claymore?), the got rid of lots of useful spells and even got rid of an entire school of magic Enchanting, now you have to do a bunch of quests to get into the mages guild itself which is tiny tiny tiny for a the grand college of the arcane arts. All clothes changed based on your gender, there was no clothing or appearance customization, sure the face generating graphics were amazing, and everything was pretty to look at, but pretty to look at doesn't mean much when there is only one thing to look at. Throwing weapons were thrown out, the majority of blunt weapons were removed, spears, halberds, birdiches, glaves, and halberds disappeared, even though they are not only the peasants most common weapon but also frequently symbols of office. The game world got even smaller, and might as well be a grain of rice with the fast travel system. You don't have to think or follow directions, and you'll never get out and explore through any of the quests, considering most points are already discovered for you, marked on your magic map and magic compass, or already just outside of the city walls conveniently. And yes the graphics were amazing, the forests were pretty, but they're all exactly the same throughout Cyrodiil, the world was vastly under populated, and the cities are tiny specks. There was more to look at and see in each of the previous elder scrolls games.

Pretty much all they're trying to do these days is appeal to the "Casual Gamer", make it easy, make it so you don't have to think, and make it so you don't spend a little time thinking about what kind of person you want to be, because you could master all the skills in no time anyway. They aren't trying to make a free game where you could be any one, or a game that involves thinking or following directions, they're just making it gimmicky and simple, it's all flash, and no substance.

Within 8 hours into oblivion i walked into a set of ruins and found this sword after killing this orc called umbra and played almost my entire time with that weapon and oh by the way i was level 4. Oblivion was a better game in my opinion but to each his own. All elder scroll games make you get lost in there world so dont worry about being immersed.

Do I know how to shut a thread down or what?

That pretty much sums up Oblivion! I have never played any of the other TES games, but compared to many of the RPGs I have played over the years it is still the same situation.

Of course it will have immersion.... just like BOTH Morrowind and Oblivion did, but only if you decide to be immersed. If you choose not to be immersed, then the game won't have immersion for you.



tl;dr

(Just had to toss in my two cents, even if the OP has deemed that the thread has been wrapped up. )

I will admit to having become confused about the concept of immersion after hanging around those boards for a while. When I first arrived here (way back in the ancient days of January, I think it was), I had a pretty good idea of what it meant. After seeing the word used to justify everything from the inclusion of a hardcoe mode to spears, I became confused. After a while I realized that "immersion" was really just shorthand for "what I want to see in the game."

I was a creative writing major in university (a major only slightly less useful in the real world than underwater basket weaving), and a phrase that is often thrown around in CW circles is "suspension of disbelief." What this means is that when you read a story, you know that what you are reading is not real. But if the story is written well, you will suspend that disbelief and allow yourself to become immersed in the story. That's how I interpret "immersion." Nothing is ever going to make you forget that you are playing a game, but if the game is good enough it may make you forget your coffee or what you've got cooking on the range (hat tip to danicore for that concise explanation). It is not necessarily related to making the game more "realistic" (like jcote23said above) although that can be part of it (granted, the concept of "realism" is another one that needs to be unpacked). It is, essentially, about making the game more interesting and engrossing.

There were a lot of little things in Oblivion that I thought could be improved, but none of these things "broke my immersion." They didn't even bruise it. I still found the game interesting and engrossing in spite of these flaws. I cannot tell you how many times my tea got cold (or my beer got warm) while playing Oblivion. So I don't really want to equate immersion with something that can be measured quantitatively, with points off for certain flaws or inconsistencies. Trying to pin down exactly what "immersion" is can be very difficult, primarily because I (again) agree with jcote23 that it varies from person to person. Some people are more easily immersed than others. I think I happen to be one of those people, and I have no doubt that Skyrim will be immersive. In fact, I'm currently debating buying a little hot plate to keep my tea warm.

[Edit: somehow missed itsgrady's post up there (along with the entire second page of the thread, apparently... oops). Just wanted to add that I agree completely.]

All the immersion and realism stuff has gone way, way too far.

Morrowind had its flaws just like Oblivion did. Nostalgia does funny things to the memory. Let it be just said that both were great games that were fun to play, even if, for different reasons.

Personally, I enjoy all of Bethesda's games, however I did not feel immersed until I played FO3. Reading text in Morrowind took me out of the game, and into a book. Oblivion did other things wrong for me. However, when I got the glowing crystalline green case of Fallout 3 in my hands for the first time.... 3 am came just a little faster than I thought possible... and that my friends is gaming magic.

Bethesdas games have continued to improve and there's a definite reason we're all so excited for Skyrim..... we know we won't be let down. The game is in incredibly capable, professional hands.

/raises a mug of beer to bethesda :foodndrink:

Immersion is not being used as a way of describing what one sees as flaws, although, the way people (myself included) have used this word could very well make it seem that way.

It's more likely that a person who talks about immersion is hoping for it in a game, but from that person's point of view, there are aspects of the game that take away from the person's "feeling" of immersion. These 'flaws' are not necessarily flaws in the game itself, just flaws in creating immersion. Oblivion certainly had things that take away from immersion, but on the other hand, Oblivion had other things that still made it a really good game, even if "immersion" wasn't as good as it could have been.

Immersion is the sense that the person is actually there in that world, living that life. There have been a couple of video games that I have played that felt 100% immersive (Dungoen Master from the 1980's and Thief 2 are two examples for me). Perhaps for some people, no game could ever be 100% immersive, but I don't share that belief--I believe it is possible. But, with that being said, there have been many video games that I've really enjoyed where immersion was not a factor at all--Diablo 1 and 2 come to mind here. These games were so enjoyable that I could play them again right now with the same level of interest, but hardly did I feel like "I was there in those worlds, living those lives" when I played them.

I have personally talked to people who do not care at all whether a game is immersive. I found this hard to believe at one time, but it seems to be true. The truth that I learned is that immersion is just a thing that some people value, but not everybody. Some people don't necessarily care if they feel like "they are there, in that world". Maybe the enjoyment of immersion is akin to the enjoyment that some people have with playing rpg games, whereas other people prefer sports games, while still others love sims. Different people prefer different things.

When Bethesda is creating a game like Skyrim, probably immersion has to be pitted against other aspects of the game, and then decided as to what level of importance it will be placed. Some areas will focus highly on immersion, whereas other parts won't.

The point here is that if a person discusses a problem with immersion, the person likely doesn't mean that the problem is a flaw in the game itself. More likely, it would be that the person is saying that the "problem" seems to takes away from that person's feeling of "being there in that world, living that life".