All of the Bethesda titles are wonderfully immersive (category 3). I still happily play Daggerfall for hours sometimes, and never feel "let down" by much.

But Bethesda titles are also MASSIVELY BIGGA-HUGE. From a technical and gameplay perspective, this is an equally massive challenge to overcome. I would say that most of the "immersion-breaking" aspects of any Beth title are bugs, over-simplified mechanics, or features that were glossed over in certain areas. Considering the sheer scope of the games, it's a small miracle they ever wind up becoming as polished as they are!

I remember having such a feeling of disappointment when first playing Oblivion and discovering you could not join the Imperial Legion. A war against bloody Daedra, and I personally saved the heir-apparent, and I can't join the friggin' army!? This was a huge oversight, in my eyes, and really smashed the immersion for me over the first few hours. But later, I came to understand: something had to go. They even excused it by saying that few Blades ever receive the honor of serving openly in the Legion. An odd choice...probably a missed opportunity...but look at the rest of the game. Even though it's my least favorite Beth title to date, it's still pretty dang incredible.

The comparison to The Witcher 3 (which I have played and absolutely love, by the way) is kind of a bad comparison for numerous reasons. Geralt is a pre-established character, greatly limiting the scope and approach to the gameplay. This also allows for the cinematic approach to cutscenes and focused character development (not possible with the Bethesda approach). Mission structure and world design -- along with a tremendous number of bugs, glitches, broken mechanics -- are basically the same as any Bethesda title. (They have much better writers. That helps, especially with side-quests.)

TL; DR

Beth games often break immersion because they're so massive, and there's no way you can include this much and capture every single minor detail. We can't have everything. People will often encounter a specific thing that's important to them and be disappointed. Consider all the stuff that is there. (I'm not saying it shouldn't be fixed once discovered, but give the devs a bit of a break. It's not like they're trying to create bugs and non-immersive elements.)

TW3 is kind of a bad comparison because it's a much more linear approach to character, plot, and theme. Of course it "gels" better -- there's not as much there. Plus, Wild Hunt suffers from just as many immersion-breaking bugs, glitches, and mechanical issues as any Beth title.

I'm playing the game and thinking to myself..... I just want to do this and that before I switch off..............

THAT is immersion.

But they tried it anyway, with Nate and Nora and litle baby Shaun. That's how they wound up with protagonists to bland to be interesting in their own right, but too detailed to support a wide range of characterization. They really did fall between two stools on this point.

But yeah, you're absolutely right in that the narrower scope of games like The Witcher or Dishonoured makes it easier to cover all the options, if only because there are things that Geralt or Corvo couldn't reasonably be expected to do in the first place. In that respect, I've often thought that Bethesda are sometimes the victims of their own success. The detail and accessibility of their worlds works so well that it encourages us to believe that everything should be possible (and also sometimes to believe that adding some detail to the game should have been trivial to accomplish).

That said ... I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with the limits to the game's scope being immersion breakers. Although I suppose my spluttering and swearing at my own supposed character in F4 when he says something particularly at odds with how I want to play him isn't greatly different.

In fact, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say at this point, so I think I'll shut up now.

And I'm guessing they probably will not attempt this again. A lot of players had a negative reaction to this. Personally, I really liked it (for Fallout). But I also tend to play pretty straightforward characters, and I don't mind following a game's lead to be good or evil.

However...I would certainly NOT want such a background dictated for an Elder Scrolls game. You have always started out as a prisoner with a blank slate, and I believe this is integral to what makes The Elder Scrolls so appealing.

Yep. A narrow focus is critical if you intend to make an experience airtight. I think players encounter something that happens to affect their particular character build, and react based only on their particular experience with their chosen path. ("BETH, WHY YOU NO MAKE THE BUSNESS SUIT TO BE DARK BLUE!!!??? YOU KILL EMERSSION!!!!!!"). Well, while producing over 1,000,000 lines of code for game mechanics, graphics, plot line, sound, music, and voice...they never got around to fabric dyes. CK is on the way...

Are they victims of their success -- yes! They have fallen into a bit of a rut. While Fallout 4 is definitely a step up from previous titles...there's nothing revolutionary here. Arena was the first, huge, open, overworld-and-dungeon, first-person, do-whatever-you-want RPG. Daggerfall was like Arena on steroids along with huge immersion elements like fully procedural dungeons, massive towns, banking, player owned properties, ships, carts, etc. Morrowind was the first true, fully 3D, seamless open-world RPG. Oblivion introduced LoD and a graphics engine that incorporate such 3D fidelity that is was staggering, Fallout 3 was Fallout in a Bethesda world -- !? Are you @#$%! serious!!?? *squeal*!!! Skyrim had flippin' dragons. That you could fight. In real-time.

Fallout 4, offers nothing we haven't seen before. It does what it does really well, but nothing is revolutionary. It seems that this may be the first title that Bethesda has produced that may be stuck in a bit of a rut. (I think they believed the Settlement system was this title's claim to fame. It's cool, but it's nothing that hasn't been done much better in other titles.)

I think I get you. You're controlling a character that you can't fully control. You choose a dialogue option to say emphatically:

"Yes, sir! I'm on it!"

and instead, your character says:

"I suppose so. (Sighs.) But you owe me, and I'll be back to collect."

I found that it didn't happen much, but I know that sudden slap when you're really into a moment, and your character starts suddenly acting an behaving strangely. It's a well addressed issue with the dialogue system. I think Beth gets the point here.

Groo not understand.

I think that you answer your own question. It's difficult to "escape reality" into a game that isn't compelling. Realism in a game can have the effect of drawing you in and making you forget about the really real world. Just because outlandish things happen in the game doesn't mean that it breaks its realistic presentation of the world (plausible physics, genetics, etc.).

I accidentally hit "Post" before I had typed. Plus I'm at work. I can only post in small spurts.

Read the above post again. It's fixed now.

Ah, gotcha. I was a bit baffled for a while

I play on my 30" 2560x1600 monitor, using a mechanical keyboard so sensitive it's hard to type on and my trackball which is greased on a regular basis. My input and screen are as nice as I can afford.

I play using the same setup I have been using since the 90s of the last century. I never have to think at all about what I do to move and deal with the world. I play first person always.

I get lost in the game. I am so immersed it's almost scary. I love playing games like this.

Ha ha ha ha! AWESOME.

I can't even remember the last time I've even seen a trackball. But I think I was about 10, likely dressed in Skids, and probably buying tokens 5 for $1.00 at a Chuck E. Cheese.

How can you play with a trackball!? I always hated those things. Even for Asteroids. (Which just goes to show how much I loved Asteroids!)

I payed almost $200 for the Logitech Cordless Trackman Optical Trackball demo I got in Europe.that I have now. There is one for over a grand on Amazon now. They were about $80 new, than when they discontinued them, the price skyrocketed.

I have 2 now and hope to be able to maintain the one I have for a long time. There is nothing as good outside of the CH Trackball Pro, but it was $250 new and is pretty well gone.

I played competitive shooters for many years with one.

Yeah, but that's you.

Given some of the many "immersion ruined" comments I saw on the Skyrim forums when that game came out, I'm sure that there were any number of people claiming a lack of immersion in FO4. By their definitions of immersion, of course. Well, or just the common tactic of throwing the "immersion ruined" complaint at any particular game feature that they don't like.

(Among the things that apparently ruined immersion in Skyrim: the game daring to show your character in third person when sitting in chairs/riding horses/killcams - 'I must be in 1st person at all times for immersion!' ; the game having visible HUD elements, since they can't be immersed in the world/game if it keeps insisting on sticking this distracting crap on the screen; etc, etc, etc. I also seem to recall people saying the voiced FO4 character ruined immersion - as well as roleplay - because every time they heard the voice, they were reminded it wasn't their character.)

...and then I have to try to reconcile those immersion-is-incredibly-fragile attitudes, with people claiming to have immersion in MMOs where they're in third person, the screen is covered in UI, contrived game mechanics are front & center at all times, and they're surrounded by dozens of crazy players with silly names/idiotic chat/irrational behavior.E

Eh, whatever.

Honestly, I agree with everything you said except that part about the voiced protagonist. Surely, some of the things they say can break you out of your immersion if you are trying to RP a character other than one with the baked in background/motivations. If I want my character to be a woman who was had a bit of a psychotic break and has convinced herself that her kid is a dead as Nate, it is hard to do when being hit in the face with all the "my baby" stuff.

Mine is easily that strong. Now I played ESO in first person, like I always do, and I need my FTC and Combat Cloud as well as a lot of other add ons.

For me streaming combat stats, I really do need, are just part of the magic. Even my Stamina melee fighters use a lot of magic, can teleport, etc etc, and some useful numbers just seem to be part of that.

Not to say that there not un-immersive times, such as when it is too easy in making a kill, which doesn't provoke my thought-buds into thinking.

Honestly I never understood this myself. I mean....I change my dudes clothes (Sweater vest and slacks to bathrobe) when he's relaxing and I've got Home Plate decorated real detailed (I've changed it a lot since the video I uploaded, added more stuff) but I never for a second worry about being immersed. I know I'm playing a video game and I make myself meals during my play period and use the restroom and text my fiance and we talk about whatever!

Usually me telling her about Fallout lol

But its just a game....maybe some folks hate their lives so much they want to disconnect and reconnect in a different world. I'm sure that's a thing...my fiance is in school for psychology, I should ask her about that.

Well, yeah. Guilty as charged

I suppose I meant "has anyone in this discussion claimed that iRO4 is not immersive?"

The internet being what it is, you can find vast numbers of people ready to support just about any notion.


Honestly, I know where you're coming from. The term "immersion" has been hideously over-used lately. I particularly despair of mods with titles like "Immersive Sleazy Game Show Hosts of Skyrim" where adding "Immersive ..." and " ... of Skyrim" is apparent supposed to justify any out of context addition to the setting.

But ... all that aside, the concept of immersion is still a useful one. You will get posters wailing on about how some trivial detail ruined their immersion, just as you get them complaining how the vampire feeding mechanics are unrealistic. But I still don't doesn't make "immersion" or "realism" useless concepts. We just need to keep a sense of perspective when we use them.


Yeah. It would help if they could at least keep a consistent tone and attitude for the PC. One minute you're a chpper little chipmunk with "Righty-Oh! It never hurts to help!" and the next it's "Give me back my son you baarrrrrsarrrd". Then thirty seconds later you're back to being Eek The Cat. I mean Corvo Attano has basically one emotion given the context of the game, and Geralt is so deadpan that he could be feeling anything in most cases. But Nate and Nora are all over the place, almost to the point of psychosis.

My take on Immersion Breaking from another thread for what it's worth.


I've seen the comment that dogmeat not having nuts is "Immersion Breaking" Try standing over a dead Legendary Deathclaw in your jocks and ballistic weave hat, high on Psyco/Buffout/Jet (whatever) after bashing its face in with a boxing glove????

Love this game lol

I live in London and often come across scenes like this on a Friday/Saturday night

Immersion is all about exploring your creative imagination while using someone elses "sandbox" to do so. I am a very immersive player but I always immerse myself in a game based on the games world. So as long as the world matches the gameplay, I'm fine. What's immersive breaking is something like for example... in Fallout 4: shooting a human in the head with a sniper rifle and it only taking an inch of health away. But reloading a left handed gun when you're a righty is not immersive breaking for me.... I couldn't care less. A boy stuck in the fridge makes sense in a fallout world (kinda) because he was a ghoul. The kid being able to speak words and not being blind or being able to walk imediately after being released from that fridge after 200 years? A bit too much lol... but F it... who knows how ghouls really work? lol

I will give Bethesda the crown for one thing if just that.... it's building a massive world that you can lose yourself in immersively. Skyrim and Fallout 4 has both done this for me and despite all the glitches and bugs that come with that massive game world... it's still my favorite game design I have ever encountered. The only game series I like more than these games is Mass Effect Trilogy which is my favorite game series of all time. Skyrim comes a close second and Fallout 4 is making it's way up the ladder to 3rd.

Lmao! Usually bogans here and not Deathclaws ?? I just find the whole immersion breaking thing an odd concept, it's a computer game where insane/impossible stuff is everyday occurrence. I mean I hardly bat an eyelid at some stuff, it's just "holy sh*t that was weird" not "that's it, immersion broken, game is rubbish!"

I agree, I already gave my 2 cents to this topic anyway. Immersion is escapism and the intensity of it. I doubt many bus drivers are going to play Bus Driver Simulator 2016 when they get home from work.

There's no escapism for Deathclaws when I'm in my jocks and high as a kite. Immersion is the last thing on my mind when I'm boxing one to death! Although I guess I do get immersion, just enjoy the absurd things I can do that in life would have me locked away in a padded room lol that's the immersion in these games for me. It more when something completely mundane and everyday occurs and I'll be "what! That could've been way more over the top!" Real life can be pretty boring but if you like your dogs to have nuts so things feel real I got one out in the backyard probably licking his right now lol

The only game world I played and said "hmm, I would like to live in that world" is Skyrim lol.

Love Fallout, but a radioactive wasteland with a bunch of people living in shacks and dirty underwear can't beat majestic mountains, waterfalls, caves and a warm mead by a roaring hearth in a snowstorm

Yep. Which is exactly why the teleport-burrowing scorpions in F4 are so bad. They make no sense, even in a bizarre world which regularly bends the rules of physics. You can get used to 7' tall green mutants and carrying 1000 lbs. of gear on your back, and laser guns that sound like shotguns, and all kinds of completely unbelievable stuff... but those scorps... lol. Total BS in any universe.