"Immortal" NPC's are a problem... : V - Skyrim

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:30 pm

The empire camps make the least amount of sense. After doing all the stormcloak quests (at least the main one) and driving the legion out, I was even told by Ulrich that there are still many imperial camps hidden across Skyrim and that if I have come across one of these camps that I'll "know what to do".

the immortal npc's is why i have the pc version. otherwise i would have went with console because its just more comfortable to kick back on a bed or couch and play a game.
some of the NPC's i can understand being immortal. but after completing the primary quest for that npc they should no longer be. if every npc in the world had 5 quests associated with them, and you complete the first or maybe even the first two they should be able to die. but thats not how it is. so that kind of svcks but ahwell

i also wander if it will be possible to mod the game so that when parents or guardians of children die they can be transported to something similar to a giant fortress in some out of the way area of the world. so even if we make all npc's mortal again we dont have to worry about entire cities being empty except for 2 or 3children running around like nothin happened

maybe place it on an island in the sea, give more guards than any city has and all that so it is a someway realistic to keep them safe and out of the way

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:11 pm

Apparently dead NPCs are a bigger problem.

Imagine Delphine getting killed by the dragon early in the MQ... Catch my drift?

Then again, you could get a message saying:

"An essential character has died. You cannot complete the following quest(s) without them."

***List broken quests***

Load Previous Save / Continue Anyway

The problem with this is that quests with NPC companions turn into babysitting.

You've given me a better idea :3 And I think I'm gonna implement this in a mod when the CK comes out :3

When you 'kill' an essential NPC and he goes on his knees, a message will come up saying :

"An Essential NPC has died in your presence, do you want to revive him?"

If you pick yes : He revives by macroing a simple console command, in a subtle way of course, at full health.
If you pick no : He stays dead by macroing two simple console commands :
i) A command that makes him unessential.
ii) A command that kills him.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:56 am

My god, why does Bethesda take a step backwards every time they take a step forward?

Fallout: New Vegas had NO IMMORTAL NPCs. SKyrim has almost 150 unkillable NPCs.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:45 am

If radiant story had been implemented like it was supposed to, this wouldn't be much of an issue.

He doesn't need to get a clue, you do. hes mostly right. unless its a problem that can be fixed in official patches, console players don't really have room to complain. they should have baught a more expensive PC and played the game on a REAL gaming machine instead of a worthless little toy with outdated tech such as an Xbox 360 or a PS3. I know the bottom line is an issue here but if console players want to complain, they have no room to. PC players have no room to complain except that the CK isn't out yet. I'm waiting patiently for it myself.

In just a little while us PC Skyrim players will be modding the heck out of our game to make our experience of this game more enjoyable, and amazing. and console players will be stuck with the same game they had when they bought it.

Skyrim is a waste of money for console owning consumers, cause eventually the game will no longer be as fun as it used to be because there is nothing new. this is not just fact merely because I say so.

You're not that bright are you? The consoles are machines DESIGNED for playing video games duh. Just because some of us have lives and kids and bills and such and would rather have my kids enjoy christmas than waste an excessive amount of cash on a gaming pc doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to get patches from the makers for problems such as this. Ill assume you are a pc elitist who probably has someone taking care of you buying all of your gaming necessities. I just find it hard to believe there are ignorant people like you out there that actually make it to adolescence. Sure, you can design a pc for gaming needs but that is not there intended purpose unless you make it as such. Consoles, however, may be outdated compared to your superPC but there purpose from their inception was to play games... jeez.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:08 am

Also, the above post doesn't even mention the fact that the majority of their sales come from console users. I don't think you would make it long in the business world if you selectively choose to alienate a large portion of your clientele. Oh, here ya go... its a clue! I found an extra one and I would really like for you to have it!

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:17 pm

And lastly Krensada... we all, as CONSUMERS, have a right to complain if the poduct does not perform as intended by the programmers. Telling me to clean out stormcloak camps and then making them all have an essential npc is hardly working the way I think they would have intended. Personally, I feel that they should add an on/off switch for essential npcs so I can turn it off if someone I don't feel should be alive comes along. I'm a big boy and can make my own decisions to break certain, or even all the quests, if I so desire. That's part of the appeal of a game like this... I CAN DO WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT, regardless of the consequences. If I don't like them I can reload or start a new game.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:00 am

Only the npcs related to the MQ should be immortal...everyone else should be killable by the player/a dragon attack.
And followers can actually die...Falmers are great follower killers cause they use poison....the damage from their strikes kneel them and the poison kills them shortafter.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:40 am

Here's a thought. If the player kills someone who is essential to the main quest, it's a reload/end. Faction/side quests aren't that critical to finishing the game, so that just fails outright. But yes, I think every character should be kill-able. I'm an advlt, I don't need my hand held. We're not teenagers still wet behind the ears (although some of us behave like that at times). Of course, if you're under seventeen, you shouldn't even be in here in the first place, right? This game DOES contain mature subject matter.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:44 pm

I think any NPC involved in a quest you have yet to complete should be unkillable, that way you do not accidentally do a booboo and forced to reload. However once the quest is completed the NPC is like any other non important NPC-fair game.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:11 am

If radiant story had been implemented like it was supposed to, this wouldn't be much of an issue.

He doesn't need to get a clue, you do. hes mostly right. unless its a problem that can be fixed in official patches, console players don't really have room to complain. they should have baught a more expensive PC and played the game on a REAL gaming machine instead of a worthless little toy with outdated tech such as an Xbox 360 or a PS3. I know the bottom line is an issue here but if console players want to complain, they have no room to. PC players have no room to complain except that the CK isn't out yet. I'm waiting patiently for it myself.

In just a little while us PC Skyrim players will be modding the heck out of our game to make our experience of this game more enjoyable, and amazing. and console players will be stuck with the same game they had when they bought it.

Skyrim is a waste of money for console owning consumers, cause eventually the game will no longer be as fun as it used to be because there is nothing new. this is not just fact merely because I say so.

lol do you even read what you say?
you do realize the 360 was lead platform on this game and you're essentially playing a console port on your uber leet personal computer XD (which unlike consoles isn't a dedicated game machine btw)
secondly do you seriously have so little going on in your life that you need a piece of electronics to validate yourself?
yes you have a pc you play games on, we're all very proud of you XD

seriously this post makes me laugh while making me sad
I feel for you

ow and it's bought

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:23 am

I would love to kill off the Thieves Guild so Mjoll would quit complaining but they are all immortal. At least they let you wipe out the Dark Brotherhood.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:25 am

The problem is... one dragon attack on any off the cities will mean that half of the game is lost.

I mean, imagine one on Solitude... if it kill two named npcs, it will probably break a few quests

Why are people saying this? Almost everyone here acknowledges this is an issue that is EASILY solved by having essential NPCs only killable BY THE PLAYER CHARACTER. Not random dragons or animals or criminals.

Please get a brain in your head. This is easily fixable without having NPCs that cannot ever die despite 1) being asked to kill them by your in game leaders 2) being horrible awful evil people like Maven Black-Briar.

Easily the most stupid feature in Skyrim.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:30 am

It's been a problem in Bethesda games since Oblivion. It was a result of people who were too inept to know what they were doing killing essential NPCs in Morrowind and then complaining about it when the got the "thread of the prophecy has be severed" message. They figured, well, some people are too foolish to save before attacking someone/ don't like the consequences of their actions, so we'll just make the NPCs immortal. It stuck.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:20 pm

I still remember like I killed some NPC in Morrowind and the window popped up saying "You just killed a main story related character. you can stay in game and wander aimlessly or reload your last save" or something like that.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:02 am

If certain quest givers aren't given essential status then the game could be broken. If Whiterun's Jarl whether it's Baulgruff or the other guy gets killed you can't complete the main quest, I see that as a huge problem. Making the game run effectively with it's quests has to come 1st before Immersion. The only reason that New Vegas was able to pull it off was because it's important quest givers were in places that enemies wouldn't be able to reach. A Raider isn't going to reach Colonal Moore or Caesar but that might not be the case with other characters in Skyrim. It's spilled milk on the floor but I'd rather have that system in place then a system where a good amount of Skyrim's quests could be killed off because of a Dragon or some other creature attacks a city or a village.

The PC could kill everyone you mentioned in New Vegas so your point is moot. You just instantly fail the quests they might have given you. That's how it should always be. There were only two immortal NPCs in NV: Yes Man and Victor and Victor is only immortal until you reach Yes Man.

The point is the player should be able to forfeit quests if they feel like it. Make essential NPCs only killable by the PC and the issue is solved. Although, given that they couldn't even script for getting an object at the wrong time in a quest without breaking it I can't image the TES team could handle that.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:13 am

Also, once the MQ is completed, all NPCs should become killable. Except children, of course! :nono:

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:15 pm

It's been a problem in Bethesda games since Oblivion. It was a result of people who were too inept to know what they were doing killing essential NPCs in Morrowind and then complaining about it when the got the "thread of the prophecy has be severed" message. They figured, well, some people are too foolish to save before attacking someone/ don't like the consequences of their actions, so we'll just make the NPCs immortal. It stuck.

To reiterate and paraphrase a point I made in another such thread: people that cannot handle the consequences of their actions should not be playing RPGs.

No, seriously, one of the core concepts of RPGs is choices and consequences, so if you can't deal with that then IMO you're in the wrong genre. That we should have such inanities as immortal commanders in Imperial or Stormcloak bases, or a total inability to obliterate the Thieves' Guild if we so choose, is a sorry thing indeed and should never have been implemented. Unfortunately, someone at Bethesda decided that we were utterly unable to comprehend that same core concept, and decided it was necessary to treat us all like clueless idiots.

:meh: :shakehead:

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:56 pm

Once my game was actually saved by this mechanic, because for unknown reason, Saphire and the other Thieves guild guy in Riften decided to have a brawl with the Riften guards the moment I arrived in the city.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:22 pm

Okay so, am I the only one getting annoyed with these npc's that cannot be killed at all? for example, I'm inside the thieves guild after getting chased inside by guards ( I don't think they should even be able to enter this area. ) but there's this one guy which I'm guessing has to do with a quest or something but... he can't be killed at all, its frustrating that every few seconds the guy gets back up and starts fighting again. I cant even talk to the people in the guild because they constantly attack him. I've tried everything i can think of. I've tried, leaving the area and coming back, using a fear spell on him, and simply hitting him until he leaves or something. but no, he's still in there constantly fighting which is causing me not to be able to do any of the quests for the guild. so what I'm proposing is that "immortal" npc's that don't have anything to do with the main story quests can be killed, or they at least flee the area. ( I would've reloaded the save but my last hard save was about four hours ago and i've turned off autosaving so my save file doesnt get any bigger and cause even more lag than the game already has.)

Just to say one: I was cornered by three guards in the Temple of Talos and I was definitely able to kick their asses (which I did twice!)...then they kept recovering and I was captured.

While being captured was necessary for me to go on with the quest, I hated it!

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:47 am

To reiterate and paraphrase a point I made in another such thread: people that cannot handle the consequences of their actions should not be playing RPGs.

No, seriously, one of the core concepts of RPGs is choices and consequences, so if you can't deal with that then IMO you're in the wrong genre. That we should have such inanities as immortal commanders in Imperial or Stormcloak bases, or a total inability to obliterate the Thieves' Guild if we so choose, is a sorry thing indeed and should never have been implemented. Unfortunately, someone at Bethesda decided that we were utterly unable to comprehend that same core concept, and decided it was necessary to treat us all like clueless idiots.

:meh: :shakehead:

Amen, brother.

Bethesda should have Obsidian design all their quests. They understand choice and consequence and always have since the first Fallout.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:56 am

A way around the NPC immortality could be for the game to generate a replacement that arrives 72 hours after the death of the NPC in question. That way, your quest don't get broke cos' they pass on to the successor AND you get to run a blade through someone. It could be a relative of the deceased or a reassigned officer or something. Then Maven Black-Briar would depart the living world of SKyrim. I have never disliked a virtual person so intensely that I wish I could do a standing power attack right there in the throne room and lop off her head... In a future DLC they need to allow us to remove her...forcefully.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:51 am

I don't see how having immortal npcs that could be killed only by the player would solve the issue....
Some npcs NEED to be essential, but I feel that only the main quest and guild quests npcs should be immortal.
ANY other npcs should be killable...by the player, by a wandering giant and expecially by a dragon attacking a city. Tweak their AI so they actually run in terror and hide, instead of running with a dagger in the mouth of the dragon and they will not die...
Nothing, nothing breaks my immersion in this world, threatened by the return of Alduin, more than seeing some random villagers taking a bath in the flames of a dragon breath or just kneeling while regenarating hp, while the beast is probably going mad trying to kill them.
Everytime I see a dragon turning on the same npc they "killed" 10 seconds before, I swear I could hear them saying "WTF I've already roasted you!1111!!!! *firing lazorsssssss*

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:13 am

I don't see how having immortal npcs that could be killed only by the player would solve the issue....
Some npcs NEED to be essential, but I feel that only the main quest and guild quests npcs should be immortal.

Why though? Why shouldn't I be able to decide I don't want to do the Thieves Guild quest and instead kill them all? That should be my choice.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:53 am

Why though? Why shouldn't I be able to decide I don't want to do the Thieves Guild quest and instead kill them all? That should be my choice.

yeah...I agree...I was referring to the guild quests you're taking.
So, in Skyrim, if you're taking the path of the Dark Brotherhood, any npcs related to their quests should be immortal....if you don't they should be killable

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:11 pm

yeah...I agree...I was referring to the guild quests you're taking.
So, in Skyrim, if you're taking the path of the Dark Brotherhood, any npcs related to their quests should be immortal....if you don't they should be killable

They should just be kill-able regardless.
That's what extra playthroughs are for.