ImmortalBlood Timeline Discussion

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 10:53 am

I'm a bit more calmed down so I'll give a response. I didn't mean to infer anyone was particularly mean-spirited. Perhaps I'm simply too soft. I suffer guilt trips for winning arguments, so actually setting someone back in an RP isn't always easy. Thwarting attackers is another matter, as I can more easily justify it, both in the in-RP and meta sense.

I never meant to suggest killing off characters "just because". If I suggested it, it's because there are some in the RP for whom assassination would be a reasonable strategic move. But I'll concede it because I'd really prefer to not win this argument, lest I suffer an aforementioned guilt trip. Plot armor for everyone. That's not to say I won't seek ways to go outside the boundaries of what plot armor typically allows.

That said, this RP has gone beyond the bounds of decent storytelling. Some of the people in the RP have made an excellent effort to try to make it that way but it's clear that it's taken a backseat to player desires. I am one who thinks that such is a bad thing, but I'm not going to condemn anyone for it. At the same time, don't expect me to treat it as such anymore. I'll try to spend less time whining and more time learning to pull out all the stops.


The Yokudans are throwing everything they have into attacking one city, why should the Confederation not similarly pool their forces? By the time Donovan learns that the war is back on and that Rihad's armies have slipped away, Rihad's forces could have gone to Roseguard and back. If not, I'm sure I'll be able to formulate a very nasty surprise for them.

Edit: Assuming he learns at all. There are ways to prevent intel from being delivered.

You shouldn't suffer a guilt trip for winning an argument, and we don't expect you to play nice or hold back in the RP. You should do whatever you can to win, justifiably in the RP, just don't be supprised if the stops don't work :wink:
As easily as you can justify thwarting an attack, I'm sure we can come up with an equal reason on how to thwart the thwarters. As for the assasinations I don't contest the possiblitly of attempt, I realize the strategic value all to well of cutting off the head of the army, but what I don't agree with is giving said strategic value without it being earned.

As for Donovon, uninterupted lines of communication via the sea? and the fact that he's actually a big part of our plans means that he would be in the know every step of the way. The Army doesn't move unti the navy moves and vice versa. The coast is completely under Yokudan control, movements by Rihad or Roseguard would be hard to not notice.

Edit: I would love the chance to see what you got Crimson, I'm sure whatever you have planed would be spectacular.
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Ian White
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 12:24 pm

I feel we may have strayed from the true spirit of Role-Playing.

I thought Role Playing meant creating a living, breathing character, then getting inside their head to act and react in the way that your character would naturally. The intentions and feelings of us, the writers, should always take a back seat to the natural progression of events in the world our characters live in.

That being said, it irks me when anyone says "I won't let my character die." because I feel like at that point you are no longer role-playing.

I personally feel that any character can and should be able to die at any moment. (within reason obviously)

If a case of "rocks fall everybody dies" occurs, the mighty Warlord of Zod should be crushed just like minions of Zod 5, 12, and 16
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Fluffer
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 10:05 am

First off you guys up for Rihad or not? The map is amazing and I think we should use it. Also Rihad seems like a "eastern Sentinel" in a way so the duality of that interests me.

Secondly, I don't think anyone said "I won't let my character die" simply if it is going to happen it better be written out and not just part of ending an RP.

PS...RIHAD!
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m Gardner
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 3:35 pm

I don't know about Rihad. That said I do have some ideas for it.

I feel we may have strayed from the true spirit of Role-Playing.

I thought Role Playing meant creating a living, breathing character, then getting inside their head to act and react in the way that your character would naturally. The intentions and feelings of us, the writers, should always take a back seat to the natural progression of events in the world our characters live in.

That being said, it irks me when anyone says "I won't let my character die." because I feel like at that point you are no longer role-playing.

I personally feel that any character can and should be able to die at any moment. (within reason obviously)

If a case of "rocks fall everybody dies" occurs, the mighty Warlord of Zod should be crushed just like minions of Zod 5, 12, and 16
Yeah, I think we've deviated somewhat from roleplaying and storytelling. I'd even say we've skirted the borders of powergaming. That said I'm willing to tolerate plot armor so long as it works both ways. Nobody likes their beloved character getting unexpectedly offed.
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FirDaus LOVe farhana
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 3:03 am

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs22/f/2007/330/0/f/City_of_Rihad_by_Tamriel_Rebuilt.jpg

Tidus made a cool map based off of that. Of course this would be a "small scale video game variant" of it, but it seems very diverse and unique.
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Lawrence Armijo
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 7:17 am

Exactly what IB said.

I've had my share of characters die, so I hope thats not directed at me for putting resistance against possibly having one of my characters auto-offed. I don't mind dieing if you can kill them, but I simply won't have it in an exchange like what was presented; its always been a staple of the timeline that you don't create characters that you can't stand to have killed. It happens. I'd gladly let Bomilkar die if I were to lose a fight in the RP, or if an assassin were to creep into camp and kill him in his sleep (in which case we would hopefully employ some sort of 'chance' device that would decide weather or not he would wake or not before said attack) but I don't like the idea of trading lives and hurting our own cause in a meta gaming pow wow.
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Matthew Aaron Evans
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 6:52 am

That being said, it irks me when anyone says "I won't let my character die." because I feel like at that point you are no longer role-playing.

I personally feel that any character can and should be able to die at any moment. (within reason obviously)

If a case of "rocks fall everybody dies" occurs, the mighty Warlord of Zod should be crushed just like minions of Zod 5, 12, and 16

Now I don't like to bring up the past, and correct me if I'm worng, but wasn't it your lone character in QW that was trampled by a whole cavalry unit and was only knocked out or something? :P

Ps, the new Beth mobile site is balls.
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Harry-James Payne
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 6:30 am



Now I don't like to bring up the past, and correct me if I'm worng, but wasn't it your lone character in QW that was trampled by a whole cavalry unit and was only knocked out or something? :P

Ps, the new Beth mobile site is balls.

He survived long enough to have a DMT trip, then died promptly on an operating table. Also, I was a [censored] back then :P
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Mr. Allen
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 6:35 pm

Soooooo, what's everybody's opinion on IB's proposed change to attacking Rihad instead of Taneth?
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Emma Parkinson
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 2:07 pm

Rihad is fine with me, I've already got a map for it and the fact that it's a port would mean we would add back the naval element, or at least for the Yokudans it would.
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Clea Jamerson
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 9:58 am

Rihad it is unless anyone has any reason against it.
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Michelle Smith
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 5:22 am

Rihad sounds fine. That way I can have Lysandra over easier and I don't need to be orchestrating a slaughterthon searching for a resistance that may or may not exist with Liburnus.
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quinnnn
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:29 pm

Just have the Knights kind of pull back to Rihad at this point (that way it will be reasonable) and it could be the epic battle. I like Rihad more than Taneth as a setting anyway. Tis all good.
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Richus Dude
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:44 pm

Bypassing Taneth and Roseguard for Rihad seems more logical too. Cut the head off. If you take Taneth you still need to take Roseguard and Rihad afterward. If you take Rihad, the other two will collapse as well.
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M!KkI
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 11:16 am

Most of the thread is done. Couple more sections. Should be up by saturday.
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Hannah Barnard
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 7:17 am

Crimson, most of this will be directed to you but I want to share words with you via pm. You talking about how depressed, infuriated etc. You have been getting with the role-play is childish. You saying that you'll relent if we agree to killing off one of our characters is childish, especially after we have told you time and again you never have to kill off one of your characters, especially when we presented the political church of Mara solution that involved no knight casualties.

You seem to have a very hard time retaining the information we put out and have an even harder time giving leeway to Tidus after he has tried so hard to cater to your wishes, in which he has no obligation. After all we have done to get you to stop whining, you talk about not relenting unless we agree to have our characters killed? Are you serious Crimson? You show you can take but can't give. Yokudan fanboyism? There design was set in motion for years, how long did you plan for the confederation? Ah yes, you didn't. It was designed solely for KSS and still has no designed leadership, probably because there is nothing fleshed out for them. Don't demand we kill off our characters when we cater to the survival of yours.

Roxanna was killed because Tidus and I felt that it would bring great development to Haroun and Bomlikar, adding in a lot of conflict and depth to them and the factions they lead, the period spanning over their wrath is called the domination, these things were decided much earlier in the role-play. Not because of you Crimson, don't feel guilt because 1: Your not responsible for anything 2: this is a story not real life.

Roxanna was an excellent character and we didn't want her to die if it was not going to be a dramatic moment in the role-play and was not going to add to the story. It was done with that in mind so don't say we are concerned with our characters over the story when we have in fact been the ones who have displayed concern with story, development and everyone overall experience while you have made a habit of demanding things (starfort, assassinations, bombards, costly victory, etc.) in order to be appeased.

Also want to add that my replies will be few and far apart, laptop is messed up so this is through my phone. I see no other way to handle this then through the siege role-play which does not really have me all that excited, I just feel we all need to find a middleground.

Also bringing back up the cannons, since my sheet has never been disputed until now, it shows that no attention was given to it. Unlike the same courtesy we have given to every writer here, so no, they will not be bombards. Even with the sights and wheels and doohickies and gewgaws, they'll be culverins. I don't care what so ever about ancient china, medieval Europe, The Redguards designed culverinea after five centuries of hypothesizing, improving and experimenting, just like the deemed invented robots and steam powered forts. I won't relent because no ground has been given to those who have attempted to compromise.

Also crimson you weren't here for it, but in SoS the Imperial Legion butchered one of their own towns, beheading childrens heads and putting them on spikes and killing every man woman child and animal in the area, as well as destroying the entire town. Atrocities have been committed by armies time and again, it's war. Haroun is just going to crush the armies and government, even then I'm showing internal struggle, what he is doing to his enemy is better than what the legions did to an ally. Even so I never said we were getting away scot free but I'm not going to punish a faction to appease you, I'm going to develop more plot with it instead.

IB, I'm on board with the new role-play.
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Alycia Leann grace
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 5:38 pm

Well, Story, no need to bring this into a PM. I'd rather not leave everyone else hanging on what my response is anyway. So here it is: I'm sorry.

I said before that people wouldn't agree with my proposal. I wasn't seriously proposing it, I was just throwing it into the air. Heck, the only reason I brought it up was because someone pried me to let it out. And to be fair I ignored a lot of stuff on both sides. Truth be told, I love your Church of Mara resolution. I really do, because it'll add something to the next RP and ensure that you can keep your foregone conclusion regardless of how things play out. What bugs and worries me is that I don't get the feeling that anyone else is actually up for it. Everyone else seems to want to slug it out and see how it plays out until only one side is left standing.

I'm sorry I freaked out earlier. I don't want to force anyone to kill off their character. If I actually managed to convince someone, I'd change my mind because I'd rather not go through with it if they even only initially protested. I'm not wanting to kill off a character, I'm wanting some consistency on plot armor. It feels odd that factions and cities can be all but annihilated without mutual consent, but not characters. And I assure you, I didn't consign to even suggest others' characters get killed off until after I had consigned to allow the same to happen to my own. That aside, I'm still sorry, it was still wrong because unlike Imperial and Dunmeri religion, Redguard religion, as far as I know, doesn't allow one to legitimately stick around Mundus post-mortem, thus death for a faithful Knight of the Nine does not carry the same permanence as the death of a Yokudan warlord. But I'm not going to argue plot armor and who or what gets it, I'm going to instead rethink my RP-style to better suit the RP.

Forget about the whole comeuppance thing. I'll probably end up doing some similarly nasty things in the Cyrodiil RP. In fact, possibly nastier, but on a smaller scale. So go wild.

In fact, I was even holding onto a plan for Admiral Lathas possibly proposing to aid the Yokudans, because he has seen the Knights' darker side, and he's appalled by how many Forbear noncombatants they've needlessly killed on both sides (Roxanna being the straw that broke the camel's back), and in hopes that he could keep the Yokudans' wrath on the Knights, thus away from the people of the Confederation. But given what you've proposed, I deemed it impossible.



As for the cannons, I feel the best lore solution would be to give them whatever cannons they had in the game Redguard (from what I've heard on the forums, there were cannons in the game). I'm afraid I've not actually seen them so I can't actually say what they were. Were they culverins? Then they should have culverins now. Yes it seems silly from a real-world point of view but technological stasis is the norm in Third Era Tamriel, and I feel it should be no different in Hammerfell. I actually feel that arguing about cannons is just damaging RPer relations now, but it is a factor and I feel it needs to be resolved in a lore-friendly manner.
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Lucy
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 3:19 pm

I've stated my justifications for it over and over, really the stasis experienced in the rest of Tamriel is appropreated by magicka. The fact the raga are anti-magicka, to me, means that they would more than likely seek other means to counteract other powers that would use magicka in warfare. Just my point of view. Stasis for the sake of it doesn't seem logical to me. I agree that the arguments have deffinatly been damaging though, but at the same time, its hard to avoid disagreements when each side disagrees with each other so strongly.
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Baby K(:
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 5:46 pm

My respects Crimson. You apologized and you were way more mature than some people in these threads who keep on arguing long after they have lost the argument.

Stay well.
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Jeneene Hunte
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 6:29 pm

I've stated my justifications for it over and over, really the stasis experienced in the rest of Tamriel is appropreated by magicka. The fact the raga are anti-magicka, to me, means that they would more than likely seek other means to counteract other powers that would use magicka in warfare. Just my point of view. Stasis for the sake of it doesn't seem logical to me. I agree that the arguments have deffinatly been damaging though, but at the same time, its hard to avoid disagreements when each side disagrees with each other so strongly.

It doesn't seem like Tamriel is progressing magicka, rather it seems they're retracing their steps and rediscovering and remastering old magicka. Shehai, Void-territories, rebuilt Dwemer tech, teleportation networks, they're all directly derived from things from before the Second Era. Most of which outshines their early Fourth Era equivalents.

Edit: Speaking of which, what RP-enhanced lore do we have on memory stones? Those things seem awesome to me.
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Dan Stevens
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 7:36 am

Also bringing back up the cannons, since my sheet has never been disputed until now, it shows that no attention was given to it. Unlike the same courtesy we have given to every writer here, so no, they will not be bombards. Even with the sights and wheels and doohickies and gewgaws, they'll be culverins. I don't care what so ever about ancient china, medieval Europe, The Redguards designed culverinea after five centuries of hypothesizing, improving and experimenting, just like the deemed invented robots and steam powered forts. I won't relent because no ground has been given to those who have attempted to compromise.

I'm sorry that you have forgotten but I had brought this issue up as early as SoS.

I just want to ask something to you Story, what is the difference between a bombard and a culverin? Tell me in words.
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ShOrty
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:18 pm

It doesn't seem like Tamriel is progressing magicka, rather it seems they're retracing their steps and rediscovering and remastering old magicka. Shehai, Void-territories, rebuilt Dwemer tech, teleportation networks, they're all directly derived from things from before the Second Era. Most of which outshines their early Fourth Era equivalents.

Edit: Speaking of which, what RP-enhanced lore do we have on memory stones? Those things seem awesome to me.

Theres the difference though. Magicka doesn't need to advance as much as be studied and adapted. The Raga on the other hand have a weapon with plenty of potential for advancement. Magicka can be studied and innovated in new ways, just because they've reached an apex in knowlege doesn't mean that their in complete and total stasis. I've listed my reasons for why the Raga would have advanced their cannon tech, theirs plenty of catalysts to spur on further research and development, however magicka is already extremely destructive and advantageous and has been the focal point of research for three eras.
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Chrissie Pillinger
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:39 pm

Theres the difference though. Magicka doesn't need to advance as much as be studied and adapted. The Raga on the other hand have a weapon with plenty of potential for advancement. Magicka can be studied and innovated in new ways, just because they've reached an apex in knowlege doesn't mean that their in complete and total stasis. I've listed my reasons for why the Raga would have advanced their cannon tech, theirs plenty of catalysts to spur on further research and development, however magicka is already extremely destructive and advantageous and has been the focal point of research for three eras.

I think that whole line of discussion is pointless. I want to get to the bottom of it. What exactly the difference between the cannons are as far as the RP goes. We don't even have a set concept of capabilities. At this point we're discussing semantics. The mechanics of things is what we need to decide on. Then we can call the weapon bombard, culverin, or whatever else. So I want to ask Story and you as well, what exactly the difference is.
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Jani Eayon
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 6:44 pm

Crimson I do have to say I'm surprised at your response and apologize for my confrontational post. Still, I'm sending a pm your way to discuss certain things off key. I want you to fully grasp how in depth and long our plans for plot and preparation have been in store so you know we aren't just cocky or making things up.

IB, I do remember when you said during SoS that the cannons would be no more than iron tubes shooting cannon balls, a primitive bombard. It was later on when Duval, with his infinitely superior knowledge over historical artillery (compared to me who searches things in Google to find out stuff for the rp) made a comment on how silly it would be to use bombards after four centuries. In Queen's Waltz, Menevian forces used culverines and that was not disputed. Also I'm sure you can attest to allowing the use of handheld fire arms like hand cannons but its not something I wanted to introduce. I wanted gunpowder weapons to stay as cannons as well as making sure they would not be the focal point of a roleplay or its future battles. However I did not want to curb the mystique of Sentinel's cannons.

When looking at this roleplay and determining the sheet one of the big factors I wanted to look at when drawing up the artillery was in what ways would we (from a Ra Gada point of view) need to advance these weapons. Sentinel does not have a history of combating other cities in Hammerfell before the war of the wolves, but they are often in Naval conflicts. Against an enemy who wields magic, an important factor would be range, why? Because unless your pitted against a powerful spell caster the spells magnitude and distance will eventually wear out. Take a bombard and in order to reach significant distance you would need to arc the trajectory a great deal more than you would have to with a culverin in order to reach that same distance. This would be unwieldy in the confines of a ship's gun port, Also take into account that mages don't have much of a reload time, under constant bombardment from magical projectiles, bombards would yield little advantage due to their slow rate of fire, worst estimates I've seen (from online because I'm no cannon expert who took Cannonology 101, 102, and Balls of Iron: How they were thrown) are 8-10 shots an entire day.

A breech loading culverine would be much more effective in naval warfare because they can achieve the same results without having to be nearly as big as the bombard it would take to accomplish the same. Smaller caliber yet a more precise fire, as well as a better distance. The more sophisticated frame (as opposed to the bombards shown) would allow for more powerful charges and frequent fires. Rate of fire, distance, and penetrating power are all viable concepts for the Ra Gada Navy seeing as how the rest of the world uses magic. From a Redguard point of view I feel this improvement makes sense. The lighter more user friendly (I don't think cannons are user friendly, Id probably blow my face up) and mobile culverin would easily be adapted to to being fielded with the army, and seeing as how they would work decently as siege weapons, anti-personnel weapons, and naval warfare weapons it would make sense for them to stick with the basic culverine for the majority of their purposes. Cheaper, requires less manpower than horsing around a monster bombard and these weapons can always be decommissioned for land warfare and thrown onto ships for the navy.

I feel the culverin is reasonable given what I have just explained, the fact that this is five centuries later and every other province in Tamriel has a reason for their technological stasis (magic). The Ra Gada are really the only ones who have a need in war time to improve technology. It took roughly two centuries of development in our own history (though I hate using it to in comparison to a fantasy setting) I'm proposinng culverines after four and a half centuries for a nation to develop these weapons after they have been given reason to (naval warfare against magic artillery).
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Mélida Brunet
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 10:11 am

Actually I can attest to offering the use of fire arms in the shape of primitive hand cannons. And the INITIAL bombards were to be as you described them. I honestly don't care if you take culverins or not. Duval's experience with historical artillery lies more in Napoleonic warfare as well.

And you haven't really detailed how exactly culveirns would be better than bombards in static terms. You just say they shoot further and faster. You can say "The bombard shoots 400 meters and the culverin shoots 450 meters. I want that extra 50 meters." And then we have somewhere to go from. But what would be the difference between a bombard and a culverin that did exactly the same thing? As for wars between them and High Rock...the last and only one that I can see being made note of is the war of Bretony over 30 years ago.

Here's the thing. My main issue has never been effectiveness but aesthetics. In short, I don't even care of Sentinel's cannons as bombards, out perform real life medieval culverins. My only point is the look.

http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/previews/403053-pevensey-castle-demi-culverin-cannon.jpeg

That is a culverin. By this era people fought like this:

http://www.deremilitari.org/REVIEWS/BOOKREVPICS/Roberts_PikeandShot.JPG

They looked like Conquistadors and had much of the fighting actually done by muskets. The next step is literally, revolutionary war style combat. We're in a medieval setting right?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/MonsMeg.JPG

http://www.colourbox.com/preview/2924460-788354-medieval-cannon-in-the.jpg

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/331360/331360,1280028753,1/stock-photo-medieval-cannon-at-morrow-denia-spain-58276984.jpg

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/Baloncici/Baloncici1201/Baloncici120100230/11959845-medieval-cannon-at-fortress-wall.jpg

http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/MIN40B_Miniature_Cannon_small.JPG

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/52846/52846,1287906462,1/stock-photo-old-medieval-cannon-in-the-fort-lovrijenac-defending-dubrovnik-old-city-in-croatia-63603865.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Medieval_cannon_in_Avignon.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jU065avH7Qk/RpPBBYTt6WI/AAAAAAAAAns/OmE3oHnSrY8/DSCF0336.jpg

That's how a medieval cannon looks like. I will say that if you really feel strongly about culveirns, sure whatever, have them. Again it's pretty irrelevant as far as i'm concerned. The only thing I really cared about is the look. The "But they'd advance since X" argument isn't actually that good to begin with for various reasons, but again I never really cared. I even suggested the Redguards have fire arms, even though I guess you don't remember me saying that. The fact that we can not even discern an actual mechanical difference that is concrete other than saying "it's just better" between culverin and bombard makes me sort of question the point of any of this anyway. Consider that and then choose what you want your cannons to look like, because we sure as hell haven't even talked about capabilities.
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Amanda savory
 
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