How is it pay to win? do they get a big red i win button? There is nothing that is described about that says it gives them any advantage except for being able to save some cash and not have to buy a mount. Have you ever seen a CE mount run faster then a mount that everyone else can get? no its never happened and its not going to, most of the time the mount isnt even top speed its the starter speed but just looks different. Your getting all upset about stuff that you don't even know about. Nobody does except B and they are not talking yet, i am guessing they will make a statement or the advert will be revised, its happened before, it happened with swtor and its CE edition so its not unheard of.

Let me put it this way:

Would it be OK to you if they took out "Dual Wielding" and offered it separately in the store for subscribers to buy?

Because "Dual Wielding" isn't an I-WIN buttong either, it's just something people will want to have and use to their advantage.

I know and i hope you would that racial skills never make a difference after you get past the first few levels after that its about skill and gear. This guy is just looking for a reason to stir trouble up. Just best to let it go...

All races have unique powers - including a passive boost to skill-ups in specific skill line. That means Imperials will "win" the race of that skill line - if you really want to pretend this is about winning a game that can't be won.

P2W is not to be taken literally in a game with no "win" state. It's about giving some players an ADVANTAGE over others, and Imperials will have an advantage in terms of their passive skill boost and whatever other powers they get.

Look at my Dual Wielding question and tell me if you'd be ok with that as well.

The Imperial Edition convinced me to buy it.. so.. I guess it worked.

All the races have powers the other races don't have and whether or not they are "objectively" more powerful would be exactly the point, but for now it is safe so say they wont be so... this just doesn't make sense.

They wont do that and you know it, there is a huge difference between racials and combat forms. Like my other post states and if you have played any kind of mmo you know it to be true, racial's only matter at lower lvls after you get past the first few they are moot. Going to sound mean but i am just curious, are the that guy that sees your neighbor get a new car and all the sudden you hate him and it just because he has one and you dont?

Yes and all players have access to those races. Only players paying extra have access to the Imperial race.

No P2W MMO in the history of P2W MMOs made people actually WIN by buying something extra. You have to make use of it.

It's about giving players desirable or unique powers if they pay for it. That's not cosmetic - that's power.

While I wouldn't be happy with that move, it would not fit the definition of "pay to win" unless the dual-wielding skill line was out of balance, and overpowered compared to all of the other skill lines.

-Travail.

We have a winner, doesnt matter what they have it is a guarantee its going to be different then the others just like all the others are different. I mean if you wanting an advantage how bout the races that get a bonus to xp for using a particular weapon, say like bows, that means that they will level that weapon up faster and do more damage then you, doesnt that make you mad also since if you were not going to play that race you dont get that bonus?

Doesn't matter if there's a huge difference or not. Dual Wielding DOES NOT win the game - as that would make all the other weapon lines useless.

But you've just admitted you wouldn't accept that.

Now.... think about why.

I don't hate people who support P2W - that would make me stupid.

I'm trying to make a point.

i didnt admit anything lol your trying to put words in my mouth, if you read what i posted that is a huge difference between racial and combat forms. Thats like comparing apples to oranges lol. I think your point is that you are just wanting to gripe about something. Read my other post and tell me how it differs from the other races having different racials and when you finally realize it doesnt and that all races are the same, as in they are all different and each race has some benefit over the other races as my example points out.

"Pay to win" means paying for more power than the players who do not pay. In this case, while you are paying for powers unique from other players, they are not (as far as we know) more powerful than the powers available to everyone.

-Travail.

Wish we had a like feature

Try it first, barking at the door doesn't do anything

Well ok I agree with P2W you buy the skills/gear and USE them to win, understood.

Saying they are giving players desirable powers is way jumping the gun though, unique yes, desirable? Nooooooo.... Look at past Imperial racials "Calm nearby people for 30 seconds" not desirable to me, and you cant really use that to win anything. Imperial racials are (in my own opinion) almost always the worst one to actually use regularly out of any race which makes them the perfect race to be basically cosmetic.

Racials are most likely neutered for an MMO anyways, there is no reason to think they'd be crazy great, or that Imperials will never be playable by standard edition people. They will playable one day for everyone.

It's not pay 2 win, because you don't get anything remotely close to an I.W.I.N. button here. If you've played the beta, you'd know that most racial bonuses are

Well, I paid $150 Australian for this. I damn well hope the Imperial race has some good bonuses!

I do agree that this was a bad move by Zenimax/gamesas, though. Having to pay to have full access to an important Elder Scrolls mechanic is ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous that you'll only be able to pay to get that for a little while, until they've sold out/finished taking preorders. But, as other users have pointed out, it may not be a 'pay to win' situation at all, depending on the Imperial bonuses.

I predict, based on stuff I've seen in the past, that the Imperials will be available in the future, potentially in the cash shop. It's possible the ability to pick your faction will also be available there. And I agree that having stuff like that in the cash shop in addition to the sub is extremely annoying and all that. It seems like withholding content that straight up exists, and only giving it if you pay extra for a retail game with an additional subscription. The habit of having a bunch of crap like Day One DLC and all that for retail games is really irritating. I still would've bought the CE even if the Imperials and the option to pick a faction were available to everybody, and I likely would've preferred it.

I still think the game is gonna be stellar, but I think this could've been executed better. There's always the chance that the Imperials and faction selection will just become available in a content patch, which is the best outcome, honestly. It might make the people that purchased the Imperial Edition feel like they got some of their fancy stuff removed, but you could add a legacy benefit to people that already have it when the Imperials drop.

So essentially the big majority (not just from this post) against pay to win/play think that:

1. Any money spent on exclusive virtual stuff is pay to win.

2. Any money spent on Pre-ordering is P2W

3. Any subscription required to play is P2P or argued to be P2W....

4. CE = P2W

5. Spending money for the game is P2W and or P2P....

6. Everthing should be F2P

Entitled much?

If you added the legacy benefit then people would cry about that, i have already witnessed that kind of stuff happen in other mmo's. I dont doubt it can be unlocked or sorts but they did say your accounts can be upgraded from basic to CE so everyone has the option to get it at sometime if you choose to. I think a lot of this hoo ha that going on is from people that cant afford the CE and are pissed about it so they are going all out to stir stuff up.

I think what it is, is not having the money to spend on anything is pay to win in some of their eyes. I think a lot of them are mad because they didn't save up for it or cant afford it so they are throwing a tantrum about it.

In before Lock?

Why don't people learn already... Mods are going to lock any threads relating to this issue... Seriously... stop crying.... Stop posting these ridiculous threads that have been locked 50+ times already... really making the mods work for their.... "money..."?

No, I think paying for exclusive POWERS - which is an in-game advantage, and not a cosmetic item - is a huge issue in a subscription based game.

You don't have to agree, obviously.

I gave the dual wielding example, which is exactly the same concept - whether or not it's more powerful is irrelevant. We're talking about powers and NOT cosmetics.

I have no problem with people "winning" if they think they can do that. I have a problem not having access to all MEANINGFUL content as a paying subscriber. THAT is the issue here.