Me too.


I love that. I mean, it won't be easy to kill baddest boss in the game. So reward can be good if I can succeed. Though, if the Boss is level scaled, it would be easy to kill. That doesn't happen though, since only hard content is scaled. You may found some level scaled quest item, that can happen. I'm not sure, a powerful weapon scaled to your level would be a good thing for you or not. If you really don't like getting a powerful item, level scaling can work for you. I actually want a powerful weapon to be a powerful weapon, regardless of my level.


That is not level scaling. Someone put glass armor in those bandits inventory leveled list, in Morrowind they only put basic armors. Not a glitch or side product of system, they wanted it to happen.

@Belanos,
Please, don't use level scaling as in leveled lists. Two completely different things. Leveled lists were in Morrowind, long before Oblivion. Scaling added in Oblivion. Encounter zones are developed with Fallout 3 and will be used in Skyrim.


I dare you, find a quote with "Morrowind" and "level scaling" in the same sentence prior to Oblivion release. Level scaling becoming synonymous with leveled lists is the unfortunate thing here.

Oblivion is a perfect example of what is level scaling. Its reputation is well deserved.

I agree OB did scaling poorly. And if Todd Howard refers to all aspects of there system as level scaling then I am going to also, he says over and over again all of are games have had some level of scaling. Because to me it all works together level list and scaling of creature to your level . And it all work together best in FO3 for me(Frans mod also did level range scaling well).

If level scaling is causing so much bad reputation, isn't it better to drop using the word? I think Todd Howard says so in defense of Oblivion.

If we're gonna call it level scaling, we still need to find a way to differentiate leveled lists and level scaling. Content scaling vs. difficulty scaling or unique scaling vs. uniform scaling? Scaling is a pretty different mechanic than leveled lists. Although one can abuse leveled lists and turn them into level scaling.
http://imgur.com/j9UPo.png
(very rare, out of context)

Morrowind didn't have scaling mechanic. It had unique content for everything.

In Morrowind, people complained about PC becoming god like at level 20, and they thought "Better add level scaling than limiting player". This is exactly what happened. Now this time, they are limiting the player, with an ingenious system. So I hope they get back to using leveled lists only and drop scaling altogether except for few NCPs perhaps. I won't care about semantics after that.

Well we disagree then, because I like how Frans Mod and Fallout 3 system worked. I play MW with a mod that adds more creatures to the level list, so about level 20 there is still stuff to fight on Vardenfell. But its is still not as good to me as FO3/Frans mod, I want that smothed out experince, were most of the fights are around my level. I don't want to waste time fighting too many weaklings or getting frustrated fight tough encounters. I do however want a little of that, which is one of the reasons OB systems failed, while FO3 did not(to me).

The the two go hand in hand in these games. You can't have level scaling without leveled lists.



You're wrong. They merely set certain parameters for the leveled list such as minimum level and whether they respawn or not.

From the GECK Wiki:



Notice that it says nothing about actually generating a leveled list but only that it affects them.



Your wrong again. From the GECK Wiki:



Why do you people keep complaining about things you obviously know nothing about?



Oblivion is just an example of level scaling that's not very well done. Refinements were made in Fallout and we can expect further refinement in Skyrim.

I have both Oblivion and Morrowind CS opened in front of me but I didn't know much about Fallout 3. I just my wrote my opinion on the systems based on some comments I read. But you brought sources so I will update my knowledge.

PS. Then I guess, Skyrim isn't very different than Fallout 3. I said encounter zones are automated because I saw a easy, hard switch so I thought the list is generated from this selection. And I thought locks are specific for Skyrim because it sounds like that the way it is advertised.

Stronger enemies are in the world by default. You can run into a creature 20 levels higher than you in Skyrim, that's been confirmed. There is no "this creature spawns when you get to a certain level", the strong creatures are already in the game, level-scaling allows for the game to not be too easy but isn't stopping you from being mutilated by some level 40 werebear you come across when your level 5. Level scaling in Skyrim works in a bracket range and only in dungeons. So if you walk into a 5-10 dungeon (you won't know what level range the dungeon is btw) and your level 3, the enemies are scaled to level 5. Sure, they are the lowest level they can be in that dungeon but they are still stronger than you. Now if you come in the dungeon and your level 8, they will be scaled to level 8 instead, that way you have a nice challenge as opposed to say a static level that would have been level 5 and the dungeon would've been an easy time. Now, if you had come in that same dungeon at level 11, those creatures are level 10. They will be weaker than you but the level-scaling allowed to give you the best challenge possible but without taking away your feeling of accomplishment and progression when you leveled. That's how level-scaling works in Skyrim, the world does not level with you. Level-scaling became some taboo word even though level-scaling has been in past TES games other than Oblivion, Oblivion was an attempt to fix how easy Morrowind was, which it did but it also took away the danger since everything was the same level as you. Now in Skyrim, they took away the easy but didn't take away the hard. See what I'm saying?

@Vtastek well from what info we have been given, it seems to be quite a bit different than FO3's level scaling but it's closer to FO3's level-scaling than Oblivion's, Skyrim's an improvement on level-scaling even beyond what FO3's was. FO3's would even scale areas, apparently Skyrim's only scales dungeons.

I want both too, I use FCOM. Place centric approach gives a level 1 believable world. And a good leveled list can and should still be place centric anyway. And I love Fallout 3. Random encounters rock in that and it is a hard game overall. Still, I am against item scaling and actor scaling. There is no need for that. It is only used on a handful of content but it still ruins many things.

That has nothing to do with Encounter Zones, it's a new tab that's found on creature/character references. From the GECK Wiki:

Unique item scaling is absurd and was done away with after OB. Wow cool I got this powerful sword of mega awesomeness. Oh wait this Silver sword is better. Huh?

@Sliegn were are you getting this info about areas not have scaling? There are been no indication that overworld areas will be static. Some areas may be harder(i.e higher elevations) but they could just be using stronger creature types(a level 10 rat and a level 10 Dadrea are quite different in power level) and/or level ranges like everything else.

It will only scale entire world spaces, interiors, or individual references. You can't set any scale levels on an individual cell within a world space or interior, only the entire area is affected.

You couldn't scale individual cells before, you can scale individual cells if they reprogrammed level-scaling, which we already know they tweaked level-scaling again in Skyrim.

I think what they're doing is a good compromise.

Or they devised a way to set up various zones as a regional object and attach Encounter Zones to them, similar to what they do with walk meshes and weather etc. My guess would be it's being done this way.

I used words like "apparently" to show that it's not a confirmed fact, it's just from the pieces of information we have been given about level-scaling, the way they say it highly implies that the world does not have level brackets. The only talk about "when you enter a dungeon it will be scaled depending on your level" and they only talk about dungeons, plus they say that you can tell if a dungeon will be to dangerous for you by the creatures around the dungeon and what not. It seems that the world will be static (and for good reason) while the dungeons will be scaled within a bracket.

Thanks again. I don't know how I combined that window and the other into one window in my mind and came up with the idea of generated lists. I should get GECK and study it. It seems a lot more complex than Oblivion.

That just implies to me that they've devised a way to create individual encounter zones within a world space. Otherwise you'd end up with level 20 creatures on the outside, but the dungeon is only a level 15. It would make more sense if the encounters in the area around the dungeon will be roughly the same level as the interior. Or they could be doing it by attaching the same encounter zone the dungeon uses to the creatures found outside. It doesn't necessarily imply though that the creatures will be static, only that they'll be more difficult in certain areas. That can easily be accomplished using the encounter zone method.

Possibly but it still doesn't change what I said, the world is not scaled, dungeons are and if they make them an encounter zone around the dungeon, it's basically part of the dungeon.

Shot in the dark here because I don't know how all of this works. Could the mobs outside of dungeons be from spawn points inside the dungeons, and thus subject to the dungeons' interior levels, then have AI packages that move them outside?

Probably not, though it could be a way they do it but it would also cause issues with the scaling of the dungeon as it scales the first time you enter a dungeon. For all we know, the creatures outside the dungeon could be a static level which would be an average of the highest scale bracket level and the lowest or so on. We won't really know how they do creatures outside of dungeons until they say more about it (or until we get our hands on the CK).

Edit: Actually on second thought, I think the creatures around the dungeon will probably be set at the lowest level in the dungeon bracket, that way you will know if your strong enough to do the dungeon because it will always be within your power to do the dungeon if your equal to or greater than the lowest level of the then you will be strong enough to do it but still have a challenge.

Oh yes, it is. In almost every area of the game there's cool things you can do that simply aren't possible with Oblivion's CS. The actor scaling system is actually quite interesting once you look into it. It offers alot of flexibility and makes it entirely possible of having a good blend of placecentric and playercentric scaling. Bethesda decided to focus more on the playercentric side of it, but there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't be used the other way as well. The complaints I've been reading about it have had nothing to do with the system itself but was strictly a design decision on the part of the devs. And I'm sure it will be even further refined in Skyrim.

That's actually how it works in Fallout 3, and if Skyrim is "Like" Fallout 3, that's probably how it'll work, and I like that, as long as it's responsible and believable.


Like In Fallout 3, if I go east of Megaton at level 5 or so, I may run into an adolescent radscorpion(Or something as low as a molerat) that occupies one of the slots flagged as "Leveled" or whatever the terminology is they want to use. If I come back at level 20, it's written that a Giant Radscorpion or something of similar power can spawn there, but it doesn't mean it will. From an immersion standpoint, and this is where Akka loses me every time, there is no logical conclusion you can make that says "It's impossible for that Giant Radscorpion to be there now, because it wasn't there x number of days ago", because that's outright false. The Creatures are present in the game world regardless, I don't have to suspend any extra disbelief to come to a conclusion that "It just wandered here".

Where I think Fallout 3 slipped up though, is not enough instances of Static, hand-placed spawns that don't change with the player. There's a lot that are static, but not quite that balance I'd like between the Organic, albeit stagnant world of New Vegas, with say, the difficulty curve of Mass Effect 2 (I can't call a TES game, because none have really never been great in that regard). One of the bigger reasons you need a believable amount of "Static" spawns, aside from obviously a gauge for the player to judge his power progression, is the feeling of diversity the game will give overall. I overuse the word "Contrast" a lot, but in making an exceptional experience in art, you really need to observe it as a philosophy in overall design. You want to regularly reset the players "Palate" so to speak, to keep everything nice and fresh. Oblivion was nearly devoid of contrast on virtually every front, and I think that's why a lot of gamers, even ones like myself who still hold Oblivion in very high regard, complain that it was "Stale".

Possibly, but I doubt it. It would be alot easier just to have them spawn outside then attach an encounter zone that matched the interior. I'm not sure about earlier games or how it will work in Skyrim, but with Oblivion and Fallout 3, any actor spawned from a leveled list couldn't travel from area to another, unless the player was in the same cell as them. Which would mean that the player would have to be inside the dungeon before they could move out of it. Of course they don't have to come from a leveled list, which would get around that limitation.

Ok, thanks for clearly that up. I still would assume some amount of scaling/level listing of creatures in the outside world, well find out.

The game engine also placed too much emphasis on higher level actors when deciding what to spawn. While it was entirely possible to have a Level 3 Vicious Dog spawn in the Wasteland when you were level 20, rather than a Giant Radscorpion, it didn't happen all that often. The result was that you ended up running into the same types of encounters everywhere you went. It should have placed an equal emphasis on all levels, rather than focusing on the tougher creatures. I can fully understand why some people have misconceptions as to how things worked because that's how it seemed to due to that bias, even though the actual mechanics of the system didn't work that way. That problem was fixable for me through manipulation of the leveled lists, but it shouldn't have existed in the first place.