The last thread got closed a little early for flaming. All in all I’ve been very impressed with the conduct of members in these threads considering how heated fast travel debate has got in the past, and I ask that we all work on keeping it together. So remember to attack each others’ arguments (with your own reasonable counterarguments) and not each other.



My solution (with major credit to Spagne)
I propose two parallel systems: a revamped Oblivion's and a revamped Morrowind's.
The first works pretty much like http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1162378-fast-travel - a Dragon Age: Origins type system that allows you to fast travel from anywhere but has the inconveniences of random encounters (and not all random encounters have to be a fight, by the way) and the short delay as you see your character's icon travelling across the map. Not only that, but travelling on foot like this is quite slow, and you have to discover your destination once before being able to get there.

The second system is basically Morrowind's with a few upgrades. Mark and recall should return, and they would teleport you instantly to your mark. I'm not so sure about scrolls of Divine Intervention, but they could work. On top of that there's the network of Synod and College of Whispers teleporters that can get you to your destination instantly. Finally there're the vast merchant and caravan networks that cover more of Skyrim, but aren't instantaneous - although they travel faster than the lone Dovahkiin and are far less prone to being attacked. However, the teleporters' and caravanners' services are only available during business hours (and perhaps one of the institutions only offers their services to members?), the recall spell takes it out of your magicka reserves (you are teleporting after all), and catching the merchant convoys is down to a bit of luck.

So now we have a comprehensive travel system. It caters to people who want to get anywhere on the map quickly with a DA:O style system (although I would see the icon move across the map slightly faster than in that game. Ugh) while including a Morrowind-esque alternative that travels more quickly and safely at the cost of gold, a little convenience and the arguable irritation of having a smaller network of places to be able to travel to (although places need not be unlocked by getting there first with this system).

Original OP



Leaving that aside, for gameplay features as integral as fast travel, ignoring it is impossible to do while preserving a coherent and enjoyable gameplay experience. It’s like telling someone to ignore the combat - you cannot do it and continue to play the game the way it was intended by BGS to be enjoyed.
This is because of the way that Oblivion was designed. There are three primary factors that severely discourage people from ignoring Oblivion’s fast travel system:

• Trivial quests will regularly send you to the other side of the overworld because quest designers are - rightly - expecting players to utilise the fast travel system that they have been given.
  
• There are no alternatives to teleportation fast travel except for walking, which takes ages, or riding, which is often even slower.
  
• The landscape is boring. Much of Oblivion’s landscape is randomly generated and thus featureless. There is no aesthetic incentive to take the scenic route.

So we have a game that frequently makes players choose between instant teleportation to their destination or a long slog across a boring and repetitive game world that, by level twenty, is filled with minotaur lords. There might technically be a choice there, but gee, BGS really aren’t making it easy on us roleplayers now are they? Which leads nicely onto point 2:

Oblivion’s teleporting method of fast travel makes no sense

I feel that this 'Oblivion's system is essentially teleporting' quip has got out of hand to the point of being used without any context or explanation. My mistake, but please do not think that I am under the impression that my Oblivion character is just jumping around Cyrodiil at random points in space and time like a fantasy themed Desmond Hume, and that that is what is bothering me: it isn't. What bothers me is that my character is able to walk from one side of the country to the other in a couple of days without a scratch. Not only is walking what is supposed to be such a vast distance an absolutely foolhardy method of travel for someone with a job to do, it's also rather jarring that this is the only (barring the sloppy horse system and, let's face it, few people bothered getting on their horse to pretend ride through the loading screen when they fast travelled) choice. It grates on me that any kind of open world has been realised withoutany evidence of organised travel networks. Civilisation in Cyrodiil is evolving along a strange path indeed if the White Gold Tower came before the wheel.

The reason that Oblivion's fast travel is so often referred to as 'teleporting' is because people are alluding to the phenomenon of, in light of the total lack of any kind of explanation for the population of Cyrodiil's mobility, completely giving up on trying to consider the game's travel believable at all. At least that's why I say it...

Once upon a time, role playing gamers had to gather together in real life for their fantasy hit. This would be doled out by the Dungeon Master, who knew intimately the rules of the game and the intricacies of the game world. They would make sure that everything was consistent, fair and - most importantly - believable. It would have violated the ‘believable’ bit if Tarkwin decided that he wanted to travel to the Mages’ Guild from the other side of FantasyVille and the only price to pay was a shift in time. No random encounters, no gold, so fatigue. Nothing.

Fast forward thirty years or so, and now DMs have been widely replaced by videogames. The purpose of the videogame is to set up a believable world for us to play in and then - in the case of BGS games - let us do whatever the hell we want. The game must be believable to be enjoyable, and to be believable it has to be consistent and it has to have certain restrictions that reflect the behaviour of familiar things. For instance, you can’t kill Mrs X outside in a crowd of people without becoming a criminal; it takes ages to kill a heavily armoured person with your untrained fists; and you can’t teleport across the world by clicking on a map. Wait, what?

Precisely. There is the key difference between Morrowind’s and Oblivion’s respective systems: Morrowind’s requires you to go to an appropriate vendor of fast travel services - a boatman, Mages’ Guild teleporter or silt strider driver - and pay them a negligible but nevertheless present fee for the service of instant travel. Oblivion’s requires you to be outside (which doesn’t make much sense in the game world - only as a balancing mechanic) and open your map and click on where you would like to go. The former gives a believable and lore-consistent explanation of how you suddenly find yourself on the other side of map, the latter is just lazy.

Another word for Morrowind’s fast travel system is ‘intradiegetic’ - “contained within the narrative”. The game is doing its job as DM by giving the player a reason for the feature being there that makes sense within the game world, and levying a believable fee for such a feature. The player uses it without having to suspend their disbelief, and all is well.

And when I say ‘believable’, I mean just that. A believable game world means that you can believe that what is happening on your screen is feasible in the context of the game world. Daedra princes and magic are believable because they are consistent components of the TES universe. ‘Realism’ is a separate concept.

Much of the problem with Oblivion's system is its lack of alternatives. While OP would personally like to see Oblivion's system destroyed and never spoken of again, he does acknowledge that some players enjoy it and that simply adding alternatives is a far preferable course of action to almost everyone. Read: OP is not advocating getting rid of Oblivion’s system.

This thread is highlighting the desirability of added alternatives to Oblivion's fast travel system more than it is waging a crusade against it. While I usually scoff at the idea of a toggle as a get-out clause in debates, I can’t help but wonder whether an on/off toggle for “Oblivion style fast travel” plus alternatives such as mage teleporters, silt strider Skyrim equivalents, scrolls of intervention and mark/recall spells would finally make everyone happy.

A frequently raised point: [color=red]”Morrowind’s system required loads of walking!”
Well, leaving aside the issue of “what’s wrong with walking through a gorgeous, hand crafted environment like Skyrim’s?”, there are two main factors exacerbating this issue:

• People not utilising Morrowind’s system to its full extent. On top of the caravanners, mage teleporters and boatmen, there are mark/recall spells that totally negate the boring return journey that is apparently so hated, as well as scrolls of Divine and Almsivi intervention which instantly transported the player character to the nearest of the five or six major settlements. The spells didn’t require much magic proficiency, and the scrolls were free for all to use. People finding themselves trudging back and forth is the result of those people not using all the tools at their disposal.
  
• Morrowind’s run speed was laughably slow. This was a design flaw in Morrowind, not an issue with the fast travel system, and it made walking from one place to the other horribly tedious. There was a huge disparity between how quickly players were able to take in information about their surroundings and how quickly the surroundings changed. Looking at the run speed in the latest trailer, though, this doesn’t look to be a problem anymore.

Aaaaaaand resume.

I don't really care what they do with fast travel. I've used it in Oblivion and in Fallout 3/NV but with Skyrim, I fully intend on ignoring it as much as possible so I can see the world they've created to its fullest. At least on my first character. GTAIV recently taught me that worlds are worth exploring. I've played it a bunch of times, but I've never stopped to just walk around the world. It's amazing what these NPC's do just randomly while walking around.

If fast travel works like it does in Oblivion, I'll just refrain from using it as much as conveniently possible. I'd love it if they implement a system like Morrowind or even the taxis in GTAIV. It won't be the end of the world if they don't however. :shrug:

A chose would make everyone happy.

3 prompts

Morrowind style: Boats, silt strider and mages guild + mark and recall. Temple and fort recall scrolls/spells
OB: Travel anywhere
hardcoe: No or very limited fast travel

I have tried a transport mod for Oblivion where you have transportation that you pay for, and it sort of works, I did find myself exploring more often rather than fast travelling, but sometimes it can be annoying because you have to do it so often. This is, though, a problem caused by the fact that nearly every quest has you bunny hopping around this enormous continent, like "Hey, I need you to go do a mission for me, could you leave Bravil and go to leyawiin, and then when you talk to this person, head to Anvil, kill this thing and go up to Cheydinhal". And also the fact that there are few interesting or unique locations outside the cities. If the world was more dispersed with local towns/cities which will be part of your quest more often than far off cities constantly, and a transportation network would work better. Make me need to go to the nearest city, or to a nearby town for something, and then after a while move to a new base of operations.

Another thing which could be good is fast travel only between major cities and you have to walk everywhere else.

^this

I've seen numerous people point out to Arena/Daggerfall's system of fast travel. Similar to Oblivion you can choose your destination of travel. However, this would accompany a set of options akin to Daggerfall's system of Fast Travel. For instance, the option to choose a mode of travel, each of which will have a certain cost factor associated to it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxUCxhcwsNI

I don't see anything wrong with Oblivion style Fast Travel and any changes to it would be for the worse.

you know nelar made a great comment, although I've always played this way, why not give us an option like in FNV to turn hardcoe mode on at the beginning resulting in

"hardcoe: No or very limited fast travel"

simple, definative

I don't see anything wrong to the OB Fast Travel - and if the world is better made than its predecessor there wouldn't be any over use of FT.

When you pick the bus or the car or walk to work/school you probably don't notice the path anymore after 3-4 times. It just becomes "I start at 7:00 AM and arrive around 7:40 AM". Everything is shrouded, confused, identical from day to day. Mostly a teleport which takes time.

So it's ok to keep it, but it would be nice if the world itself suggests us not to choose it. If by walking I KNOW I have means to know some new NPC who can offer me random quests for random/epic loot, or some NPC who will attack me for some things I have done in the past and fighting him could bring me to some new point in the game, if the land itself changes shape during time (like they said dynamical snowing), well walking gains a new sense.

I have serious reservations about the fast travel encounters idea. It works fine in DA:O because that game is divided into separate world spaces, and there is no option to walk ( that is a game that really is designed around fast travel, you can't go anywhere without it ). In a system like this, there is no problem with dropping you into a separate 'encounter space'.
In an Elder Scrolls game, with a truly open world, where do these encounters take place? I am pretty sure having a separate space cut off from the main map would stir up the 'dumbing down lynch mobs', and would we have the DA:O system of walk through this gate to end fast travel and return to the game?
The other option seems to be dropping you randomly onto the map between departure point and destination, and I for one would feel really cheated if dropped in a previously unexplored region next to an 'exploration reward', by which I mean a doomstone, shrine, undiscovered dungeon or something similar. I strongly believe such things should only be discovered if you put in the effort to walk or ride through the landscape and actually explore.

we should be able to fast travel with the possibility of random encounters. yes, thats a nice idea, now, having that incovenience of seeing your tragetory through a map its to much, first of all, remenber how on oblivion we could travel EVERYWHERE we founded earlier, thats wrong, first off, we should know they exist, but not be able to fast travel to them, we only should be able to fast travel to major cities we find, and no, not all of them should already be highlited on the beggining of the game, we must explore them and find them into the wilderness, when we find a major citie from nowhere, we can then travel there, now if we find a dungeon pretty close to the gates of a major city, we shoudn't be able to travel there, but to the gates of that major citie and then walk to the dungeon, that way, it would incite us to explore the areas even further, knowing about how dangerous it would be to travel even far way from any major citie would definitly turn the game much more interesting, and knowing how the maps are going to work on skyrim, im sure it would fit pretty well, giving us at least a way to travel easily to all the parts of skyrim, but not ruining the exploration of the world!

Well, the 'don't like it, don't use it' argument is valid. I have never fast-travelled in Oblivion and I don't think I ever used fast-travel in Morrowind either, even when riding a bug seemed a legitimate excuse.

That said, if they wanted to improve it, I think the best way would cut to the world map and use a little red "travel line" that slowly snakes its way across the map to your destination. You could even have 'interruptions' with wandering monsters attacking you while you camped or something. If anyone ever played the old game "Realms of Arkania: Star trail". This was the primary means of travelling the world and it worked well. It would make a good fast-travel system with out making it feel like you are simply cheating.

Actually with the open world, you wouldn't have to be dropped into a separate world space. Each outdoor cell could have a marker in a relatively safe space where an interruption could drop you striaight to that part of the map where the encounter would be spawned around you. People could then just initiate fast travel again after the encounter is over.

"Don't like it, don't use it" is valid advice when somebody is complaining about Oblivion. It's not valid when discussing how to improve the franchise. If somebody is having a problem with a feature of the game and are offering solutions to fix it in later instalments, "don't like it, don't use it" is a crassly stupid thing to suggest.

Moving on...

I'm fine with fast travel, it would be nicer to have an alternative that's all.
I want a paid transport service for those who don't want to fast travel but don't want to make a repeat trip between two cities.
We shall see.

But to have all these points on the map, which you would be dropped into without having discovered before, usually a big no no in ant fast travel discussion, this really would be a game designed around fast travel, as any map designed without fast travel in mind would have to be redrawn.

Excellent points.

I don't see anything wrong with OB's system. The "don't like it don't use it" argument is just as valid as the "I don't like it get rid of it argument", more so actually. I use that philosophy all the time in OB. Sometimes I walk every where just to see what I would come across, sometimes I'd FT everywhere if I didn't have a lot of time to sit and play or just wanted to get somewhere and get something done.

I don't see any reason not to add alternatives assuming they have the time and resources to add it, though I wouldn't want it to take time away from something else just to squeeze it in. This is really a "nice to have" sort of thing. If nothing else it can be mod'ed in. I believe there are even some OB mods of similar intent.

Fast Travel is not teleportation. Teleportation is instant, in that no time passes. Fast travel is not instant. Time definitely passes (and substantially sometimes) when you use it. So, let's just make sure everybody understands that fast travel is not a magic teleportation spell.

edit: also, the "don't like it, don't use it" argument is completely valid. If you don't like something in a game, then don't use it. You can still offer constructive feedback about it, sure, but just don't use it. It is, without a doubt, 100% valid as an argument.

I refer you to:



I refer you to:

And it's a crassly stupid thing to suggest because it isn't constructive to the franchise at all. If a significant portion of the player base is irritated by a facet of a game then it makes sense to discuss how to change that feature to better suit the needs of the player base so that both people who are happy with the current system and people who aren't are satisfied by its manifestation in the next instalment.


Yeah, except that I and the people who agreed with me in the previous two threads do not advocate 'getting rid of' Oblivion's system. We want added alternatives.


I would appreciate it if you would never bring up mods as a solution to problems ever again for two reasons:

• Moderators Modders shouldn't have to step in to fix BGS's oversights.
  
• Console users don't have access to mods.

Cheers.

Time passing doesn't mean much when anything significant that needs to happen hinges on our involvement/being there. (aside from when we get there is the difference between life and death as a vampire) Now if quests had a time limit like in Daggerfall....

I like that... since their are rivers, and Im not 100% sure what a silt strider is, but from the UESP wiki, maybe it might not fit in the Skyrim environment, perhaps mammoths [trained] or griffins, or something like that... But also not make the fast travel for griffins/ mammoths, instant, but for mages guild, etc. instant, because remember in oblivion with the wizards tower, with the marks on the ground, those types of things could be used for mages guild, and whatever was used in morrowind...

OK, we are not getting off to a good start in this fast travel discussion either. We need to respect one another's opinions. Some of the opinion that you don't have to use fast travel if you don't want to and don't see others point that they want other options to travel. Some don't want fast travel available at all and some don't want it removed. Fast travel is included in Skyrim, that is fact now. We don't know if there are other means of travel available or not. But regardless if we want to make suggestions, discuss what we want, or discuss fast travel in anyway at all on this forum, we are going to have to be respectful of one another and saying someone's ideas or thoughts are "crassly stupid" is not a way to keep the discussion alive.

I plan to "babysit" this thread today and warn anyone who flames anothers thoughts or ideas. Just try to remember that others don't see things your way all the time and that is fine. They don't have to. And in the end, we will get the travel options the developers have given us and all the name calling, bashing, and outrage with one another's opinions will be for not.

Now, please try to continue and do so in a constructive and understanding way.

If it helps, summer, I wasn't directing those at any particular person - just a vague group of people across all debates.

(Would 'silly' be a more friendly term? I'm good with that.)

From our pinned rules. Please note the bolded part:


So, you were referring to a "group of members" whom you disagree with and flamed. If you want further discussion of this. Send me a private message and let's get this thread back on topic without flames.