The flaw with that hypothesis is that by not making it an RPG to TRY to get non-RPG players, they alienate their very large, stable RPG playing base. They obviously wouldn't do that and there is no truth to the conspiracy theories that TES is losing what makes it an RPG. Customizing your character the way you want is a core part of an RPG and we have even more customization than the "Almighty Morrowind", so I would think that Skyrim is only more an RPG than moving away from it.

this. as long as the perks for each skill make me feel like i am a master of that skill, i dont need stats telling me so.

I seem to be seeing a trend in your posts in which you always think of yourself high and mighty and always right, everyone else is wrong. Maybe you're not intentionally trying to sound like that, but that's the general vibe I get. And why is it that to you, simple = stupid?
If you could eleborate more, I'd appreciate it.

On topic: Attributes are still in, they're just working in the shadows, quiet and unseen. Yet they do their job just as well.

They alienate their fanbase, by cutting and removing things. again we wont know until it comes out. Who knew Mass Effect 2 was going to be a shell of its former self until it actually came out.

You sure about that? We may have said the same thing about bandits in glass and deadric armor a few years ago.
Assumtions are bad, a few weeks ago I was assuming the people crying, "They removed attributes!!!" were crazy because I assumed them to be in...

50 per character distributed among 18 skills. That's not a lot, and they are not doing what attributes did. How are they going to make up for the absence of strength, speed, and agility?

Everything Ive heard says perks are directly related to skills, no general perks or attribute perks, so all attributes would have to be correlated to the perks in a skill perk tree. this got me wondering about running fast and acrobatics, if there is no skill for it, where would the perk tree be?

I dont realy care I enjoy each time betheada changes elder scrolls.. I loved when they added skills from arena to daggerfall and I loved both the move to mw and the ob changes.. tho didnt like cyrodil or imperials;/

Dont forget folks if not for bethesda making such drastic changes and being eager to trey them elder scrolls would effectively be rage with elves.. no skills just action.. because thats what arena was.

Maybe harsh but I don't know what else to call it. Misinformation I guess?
Lumping everyone who doesn't want to play the game together as noobs who like CoD as the reason for the change without any proof whatsoever other than strictly extreme opinion is walking the line at the very least.

There are undoubtedly other ways they could have gone while keeping attributes but they chose another one that has all the previous effects of the attributes just performed in a different way. So I see no problem with their removal. It just doesn't make a difference to me because it was just a stat thats been replaced with something different does that make me a cod loving noob who just wants headshots? I'll answer for you. No. No it does not.

I also did that... Shame attributes are out...

they won't but every character would end up with 100 in everything, the limit on perks will force choices and make each character unique

Actually that is not true, they could replicate the effects with really boring perks, +1 bow damage, carry 10 lb more, etc. which some guys seem to hate already, myself I wouldn't mind a few +5% damages among the unique effects, player choices and all that.

Well not sure what to say about how acrobatics is handled yet but running is done with the sprint button which is certainly tied to the stamina attribute so advancing your stamina allows you to run for longer. This makes more sense anyway, since before you ran full tilt constantly. Simply put you won't be running everywhere is the only change there and personally I like that better.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you can get more perks per character in Oblivion than you can in Skyrim if you're willing to train to mastery in enough skills.

Perks aren't the only thing that handles attributes' effects.

Strength increased your melee damage and encumbrance. You can increase your melee damage by increasing your melee skills, and it's been said that encumbrance is still in (likely through perks).
Speed could be handled by perks, or by working off a combination of sprint+stamina. Sprinting makes you run faster while using stamina, so the more stamina you have, the longer you can sprint, which gets you farther faster.
Agility helped prevent staggering. Very simple to do as a blocking perk, if staggering even works the same way.

you're probably right, but i think the perks in skyrim will generally be more worthwhile (and fun) than oblivion's 'perks'

why is it all topics get closed after like 11 pages?

What about a light and agile swordsman who dodges strikes rather than blocks? He wouldn't get a staggering perk, so it doesn't apply to him.

Attributes make the best sense in building a character, perks can make them unique and interesting.

how about dodge?

Okay, well let's just take agility as an example then. Getting one perk that makes you go from svcky to awesome at not getting staggered vs improving a statistic little by little that reduces staggering. Which provides more depth? There's definitely something missing, right?

No you didnt it was context sensative, at least for the consoles. Plus Im talking about overall speed, not just sprintng.

Well the removal of attributes was all but confirmed for months but I think bandits in glass and daedric armor is fine, just not all of the time. It was an experiment and it went badly but it was one of the few mistakes in Oblivion and definitely didn't make it a bad game in any way. The problem is here is that we know how many perks we have, how many attributes we have and how many skills we have. We can (with current numbers in mind) already know there is more customization by default. The difference here is that with Oblivion and Morrowind, they never detailed what was being removed from Daggerfall to Morrowind or Morrowind to Oblivion but with Skyrim, they have been upfront with many things removed and added. This seems to be a change in strategy to not blind side people with changes and instead let them know up front that yes, they are removing some things but they are replacing them with more content. From what we know now, there is way more content that was added to Skyrim than was removed and thus we should keep in mind that yes, things change in development but as of now, we have a large net gain and we should treat it as so instead of thinking "But it could be bad so I'm going to treat it as bad."

In OB everyone then ends up with the same 84 perks, in a way if you play a character long enough, your development choices didn't matter, everyone has 100 attributes, 100 skills, same perks, now you have to make choices that matter. all characters end up at 100 all skill at about level 70, but with an individual set of abilities, you would need 5 or 6 characters to take every perk

boredvirulence you beat me to it. i was wondering how dodging would work. where it would fall under.

So essentially you guys are saying Bethesda came up with 84 [censored] perks for Oblivion, and this time they're gonna miraculously drop down 280 good ones (not sure on that number, but you get the point).

Even then, those 5 or 6 characters will have vastly different perk choices as well. That shows just how vast this new system in variation compared to the old system. In the old system, most characters were pretty similar in every respect with only skills being a big variation and even then, most characters would most likely have overlapping major skills.



Yes, since zoom, no fatigue loss while using a bow, being able to dodge, not damaging your shield when you block and so on are such terrible perks.... Also, there weren't 84 perks in Oblivion, magic schools didn't have perks.