I already have several times but you just ignore my posts and act like I never posted them but then question all my other posts then when I answer your questions you ignore those posts too. So I don't think anyone will fulfill your request because when they do, you just won't see it.

So I say we should just ignore each others posts completely. You've got ignoring mine down pat, I'll ignore yours, that way we can't get into any debates where it's just me talking into the wind.

OT, Attributes are still in the game in a different form and more, so hurray, the same outcome and more sounds good to me.

So what's wrong with the redundancy argument? Saying that it's "ex post facto rhetoric for mass consumption" strikes me as itself little more than rhetoric.

Cool story bro, I increased my blunt skill to be less sharp.

That's what the stat is for... Its a gauge of the personal intelligence of the that particular personality.

Why would the character have any relation to the player at all?

Because Bethesda hates you.



Back on topic, Intelligence was always the least roleplay friendly stat. Your character might have minimal intelligence, but unless the programmers coded in extra lines for it, you still sounded exactly as smart as before. Your character can have low intelligence but you can still use deep strategy and tactics during combat, something a slow minded person wouldn't do. You can still easily see trough traps, solve puzzles, read books like everybody else.
So intelligence could be renamed as, magickal power or something...

The only game that did Intelligence right was Fallout and maybe Planescape: Torment.

There were quests in Morrowind which could be completed quickly if your character had high intelligence. Obliion had nothing like this, and in Morrowind they were very few. So its safe to assume this is simply an aspect they have no interest in exploring too deeply.

And yes, Intelligence to raise magicka. That's all it does, except for the one or two quest exceptions in Morrowind. (Well, it also helped in gaining Mage Guild ranks, but I dont think these guild requierements are returning. We have to wait and see.)

Fallout was pretty good at it. You had separate lines for lower the stat (I suspect they were only included because the PC can be drugged while conversing). When you read a book in Fallout, the higher stat reduced the time it took to read the book, the lower stat increased it... it could take all day and into the night to finish the book.

Planescape is my favorite RPG. In it, it is entirely possible for the PC to level up over lunch. :laugh:

How you can measure character intelligence then, how you can model such parameter?
What difference between smart duelist and dumb barbarian?
Removing of attributes was really wrong decisions the are fundamental, removing such basis really reduce variability, Oblivion has flawed intelligence thats become "click me for more Magicka" option but thats can be fixed instead of removing, like in thats mod for Oblivion
Intelligence Overhaul
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11205
But Todd says intelligence just "click me for more Magicka" option in game and deserve be removed, does they try to make intelligence more important in game after simplification in Oblivion? No they wasn't, does intelligence was just "click me for more Magicka" option in previous games?
Daggerfall


Morrowind

No it wasn't, since affect more then just Magicka, was thats flaw fixed after Oblivion? No it wasn't, Intelligence attribute was just removed from game.
I don't think devs use mods as inspiration the just remove features, like it was with Mysticism (great idea delete one half of spell effects and put another half of them into Restoration and then say something about waste skill).
They remove features to reduce time of game developing, since having attributes involves more option in game what they don't want make.

Yeah they definitely don't use mods for inspiration..... The melee and marksman combat are heavily influenced by mods which they admitted openly. By heavily influenced I mean pretty much copied and pasted. Also they can't use mods to determine everything, they want to do some things in their own style even if it means doing it differently.

Yeah and they also just remove feature to save dev time cause you know 5years or so is nothing and games can't ever be delayed./sarcasm

Mysticism spells are simply moved to other skill sets. I haven't heard anything about them removing half of them and I've been pretty good at keeping up with the new info.

And are you seriously saying you cant imagine how intelligent your character is without a number telling you what it is? Thats terribly...well unimaginative. You can assume that by increasing your magicka you increase your intelligence instead of the other way around (as in it's the same thing) but you can also say that your character has less intelligence despite a high magicka because it isn't dictated by a number now you get to decide for yourself. HAVING attributes reduces variability not removing them because every non magic character was automatically 'dumb' because that's what the attribute said about them.

You seem to show a common mindset that despite were still getting everything about attributes just in a different way that it's must automatically be bad. Also attributes are in one way or another just hidden or included in some other unknown way.

I'll admit i put a few odd points in intelligence because i associated a low number with stupidity even though i know it has nothing to do with it, nothing wrong with it.

You don't. You roleplay it.

So intelligence effected magicka and added a small bonus to some skills.

By removing intelligence you can directly change magicka and skills without another number in-between.
So yeah, nothing is lost.

That's irrelevant, no? What matters is that an RPG should take a PC's intelligence (and every other attribute) into account, and computers are very unimaginative ~they need to be told; numerically; or else the game just ignores it.

If a PC has a low charisma, it should mean that they don't have much of a presence, and are not inspiring to their companions or new acquaintances. If they are not very astute then they should miss certain observations and opportunities in conversation and certain other situations.

Stats are for the players benefit... they define the PC's limitations; but also allow the game to offer up the appropriate unique options [dialog & opportunities] for that PC.

Well if the game were designed to not use character intelligence then it wouldn't matter one way or the other if the computer 'ignores it. They cut it out but they replaced it with something else that does the same thing (direct boost to magicka and skills level faster as you get higher in them anyway so same effects still there), which replaces it but leaves your characters true 'intelligence' up to the player to decide however they like. So no it's not irrelevant in this case.

I agree stats define the PCs limitations but I never came across a situation where my stat opened new opportunities or dialogue. In fallout yes not TES. In fact I could get any dialogue option without squat in personality or speechcraft. Now there just seems to be more emphasis on skills+specializations(perks) making the character rather than attributes deciding.

This isn't actually really correct.

SMART people can RP that they are dumber sure or smart or in between, yet have you ever seen a dumb person try to roleplay a smart person? it doesn't work.

You could ( not should, could ) look at it like this :
You are a mage, the game knows you are a mage, because your magical skills are your highest. You use your magic skills, you level up sooner, because you are more intelligent, you are better at translating practicing skills that require intelligence.

You then use an axe a lot. It takes longer to level up, because you are not as strong as a warrior type, the game knows this, because your weapon skills are relatively low. You need longer to translate practicing with a sword into overall improvement, as you have to compensate for not having spent time improving your strength and fitness.

You spend a lot of time swinging your new axe. Your strength and endurance have improved, and you have neglected your studies a little, your effective intelligence has dropped, the game knows this because your axe skill is similar to your magic. You won't level up, again translating practice into improvement, as fast as if you were much stronger and fitter, or more intelligent or wise, you are equally strong and intelligent, but improving either will level you up at the same rate.

You now buy some lockpicks. This skill is difficult for you, you are not very dextrous, the game knows this because........

Surely as the player avatar is a persona of yourself, the avatars intelligence should be based on you own.

The character is only as smart as the player controlling him.

Not really, you are playing as someone else, you can't say your spellcasting ability, the thing which intelligence governs, is as good as the players.

The mind baffles at a statement like this.

Do you even know what "role-playing" means?

But if they take some inspiration for fixing and improving combat an archery why not fix other flaws thats they make instead of complete feature removing?
Yeah and they also just remove feature to save dev time cause you know 5years or so is nothing and games can't ever be delayed./sarcasm
Oh well you think devs spend 5 years on gameplay features?
There is some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_programming what you need know before say such things,
they even not finish Production stage since still add arts and not decided with game features, and this around of 7 months before release, such stage is called Crunch when devs hurry to make playable demo for E3 or for gaming press magazines.

Well how much spell effects from mysticism left in Skyrim?
Well thats Oblivion Mysticism spell effects
Detect Life, Soul Trap, Dispel, Spell Absorption, Reflect Damage, Telekinesis, Reflect Spell

Thats Morrowind Mysticism spell effects
Absorb Attribute, Absorb Fatigue, Absorb Health, Absorb Magicka, Absorb Skill, Demoralize Humanoid, Mark, Recall, Detect Animal, Detect Enchantment, Reflect, Detect Key, Soultrap, Dispel, Spell Absorption, Almsivi Intervention, Divine Intervention, Telekinesis

Thats Daggerfall Mysticism spells
Banish Daedra, Detect, Far Silence, Fenrik's Door Jam, Holy Touch, Holy Word, Null Magicka, Open, Recall, Silence, Soul Trap, Spell Reflection, Tongues, Wizard Lock, Wizard Rend

So number of spell effects was reduced in Oblivion some of them even without any reason like Mark & Recall, Divine Intervention, as well as most of them was moved to another schools also why hostile absorbs become part of Restoration School?
Only reflect damage was added as new feature in Oblivion.
And after so much simplifications Todd say Mysticism was useless?
Oh well devs by self make it useless and now even more delete this school and move rest of spell effects to other schools, what spell effect left in game we don't even know.


For first computer game is model, then more parameters it has, then more detailed it become, more details more interesting game will be, making intelligence become just "click me for more Magicka" option is flaw of Oblivion and instead of fixing such flaw and make intelligence more then "click me for more Magicka" option devs decide remove intelligence completely, because thats was most easer way
For second intelligence not represent only magical reserves of human, it one of most important attributes of mankind, I give you example of Intelligence Overhaul mod what make intelligence useful for all characters not only for mages but also look at this formula: Magicka = Intelligence + Racial bonus + Birthsign + ( Skillsum/2 ) and reduced magicka yield each point of Intelligence give only one point of Magicka. The rest of your Magicka now comes from the sum of your magic skills divided by 2 and from Birthsign and racial bonus, yes having high intelligence affect your Magicka but thats logical since smart character has better memory for arcane formula's but all other Magicka comes from race affinity, Birthsign and deep studding of Magical arts (raising magic skills rise Magicka total and reduce cost of spells) so total Magicka based not only on intelligence, and intelligence have additional features not only just "click me for more Magicka" option, if Todd say intelligence was redundant because only affect on Magicka thats problem not of attributes system, thats problem of flawed gamedesign in Oblivion since previus games features more dependencies for intelligence.


Which one way they just remove them completely and allow manipulate parameters at levelups, hidden attributes interesting idea but why hided them, and also I'm not sure thats they are in game even in hidden state until I will see them, well I even will be happy if there will be S.P.E.C.I.A.L. attributes hidden because of time consuming implementation of classical ones, having S.P.E.C.I.A.L. is better then not having attributes at all.

Its possible to play a dumb character when your smart, but try to play a smart character when your dumb.
The problem isn t the character per se, the problem is the BIOS ([censored]ing Idiot Operating System).
A raise in INT could do tricks like to have clue on puzzles, raise the option of dialogues, raise alchemical and property identifications, and have insight on potion making, augment success on spellcrafting, scroll crafting etc and some stuff like that which would raise the interest on being inteligent, while no so bright character could have monosilabic straight forward sentences/speach for example
Mana could be tied to intelligence, but should be a second factor or could be tied to Self discipline, willpower.

The fact is bethesda dev are lazy or paid to go on gfx not to make a smart game, because it probably don t sell as much maybe, much be some BIOS problem on the client part.

I am sure you can be a perfectly reasonable human being, but two posts in two threads now, your perfectly valid points have been lost in a venting of spleen, insults, and the implication that you are more intelligent than someone who can see advantages in the removal of partially superfluous attributes. Do you have to call people stupid to get your point across?

I only increase my Int for more Magika, just like how I increase my Strength to carry more but not actually be more stronger.

I never really thought about it, since most RPG games we usually either put our Inteligence and Charisma to ZERO because they don't usually mean much in game playing terms. So we usually are ugly stupid people when we play, mostly in Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

Well there is an problem, Skyrim is not Pen and Paper RPG, its computer game thats model some parts of Pen and Paper RPG and additionally add actions component, as all computer based RPG it will have certain limitation for complete roleplay.
Smart warrior and dumb barbarian have the same combat skills, both train two handed weapons for example, both can furious in combat, difference will be in reaction in dialogues but does TES before make dialogues depend of attributes and skills or include large selection of PC answers? No it was so rare then saying about realization of our character via dialogues will be very hard, oh hell Oblivion even mostly not provide any choices and consequences to quest.
But if there will be more attributes skills and other checks, if dialogues will not so plain, if quests was not so straight and have more branches, we can roleplay character better.


Well you are not right, attributes work as base for skills, govern them and account of chances were skill was used, attributes was not just number in-between, they was fundamental and basis of skills and parameters,

We lost basis, we lost even more variability in game, we lost an fundamental feature of RPG thats represent our character uniqueness.
Just think about this
No more variability in spells since many spell effects was based on attributes,
No more variability in enchanting by the same reason
No more variability in alchemy, forge about such classical stat based potions
No more variability in poisons what poisons will affect now our characters.
No more variability in disease they was interesting feature of TES
No more variability in requirements for guilds
No more variability in skill chances checks
And many other features thats will go with attributes, oh well I hope on better dialogues thats involves more checks thats will expand dialogue system in Skyrim,
but now I feel the will be similar to JRPG when activating NPC again will work like ask more instead of classical dialogue tree.

It seem this person think reality is nasty... And it usually is.
If prople act dumb and are dumb lets assume the fact. Probably not a politically correct policy lover.

I personnaly don t approve, but he isn t wrong either.

Asside from people acting dumb and being dumb those changes have only one reason, minimize game development.
In resume, the changes that are being done, are being done because BETHESDA is MILKING the brand, period.
Another conclusion i am coming at, its that the company has saw that being lazy gameplay wise bring more money than inserting a smart system, ad now we see the epitome of it. How will it fare ? I don t know. But i probably have a good idea, see my signature.