So i was wondering if anyone else thought that independent new vegas didnt live up to its potential. In dialog throughout the game yes man says you will be taking over, but all it is is anarchy, and minimal chaos with good karma and lots of chaos with bad karma. I wish there was some sort of dialog option in game where established wat type of government you wanted and stuff and at the end slide it would say you became a beloved leader or a tyrannical leader depending on your karma.

That's why you pick the Mr. House independent Vegas. All the perks of no NCR, minus all the anarchy of no leader.

Anarchy is only a phase.
Casting off the reins of the NCR, Legion and House and allowing the Mojave to form its own Identity without "Governments" telling them what to do and how to live is a large reward for only minor Anarchy.
"In the new world, blood was spilled just like in the old world, because war, war never changes."














One vision, One Purpose!

What Marty said. House is just like independent Vegas, but with a genius pre-war billionaire who, by the way, INVENTED ROBCO, and saved your life when you were shot.

He doesn't pretend to be your friend like the NCR does, and his ending is the best imho (except for the brotherhood's annihilation, but it was necessary).

I personally dont like house, i dont think he has much value for human life, he sees it all as numbers not actual people, dont get me wrong he is a good choice for vegas (my #2) but all im saying is that the yes man route would be more fun if you could actually rule vegas.

I totally agree with you, Liberater. I felt the exact same thing about House. When he said "Oh no, screw the Brotherhood, no we can't negotiate, just [censored] kill them all." I was sure he wasn't as great or benevolent as he claimed to be, so I finally decided to go 100% independant. I also agree the ending for it could have been better. I honestly thought at the end of the game that Yes Man was betraying me, and I was going to get another BS "Haha, jokes on you, player!" like I did for Lucky Star. But yes, there should have definitely been a much better ending, especially since I helped the Followers get exactly what they wanted, and then somehow even though your character has I guess access to millions of caps, he can't/doesn't use any of it to support the group he literally just went to go ask help him after he takes over? I dunno, I think whoever was in charge of the direction of the endings figured most people would initially go with a Mr House ending, and concentrated more on that. Now I just need to decide which faction I'm going to go with on my 2nd playthrough...

Leader = Courier

How do you suppose the people of the Mojave will govern themselves? Could it be, perhaps..... with a government? Governments are not inherently bad, and for better or worse they tend to limit anarchy.

The difference of a Yes Man ending is that the Courier gets more control over what happens to the Mojave, not the lack of a government or regime. Remember the massive army of Securitrons backing the Courier.

IMO he was entirely justified in insisting on destroying the Brotherhood - his logic is sound. Because of their rigid adherence to their Codex the Brotherhood is almost by definition his enemy. Not destroying them when they are weak would almost certainly lead to a full-fledged war later on when they've recovered, since the Mojave BoS show no sign of being even a little flexible in interpreting their Codex.

I think the pros and cons of House are fairly clear - if you don't care about political representation (not the most important thing in life, I say) House is a fair bet, certainly better than Yes Man. My opinion is that it's still not as good as NCR, but that's an argument for another thread.

And this justifies a pre-emptive mass murder by your account, even considering the fact, that the Codex is what prevents them from regaining strength?
Houses' assumptions about the Brotherhoods strength are just wrong.
He's not to blame for that, he just lies in his coffin with very little possibilities to know what happens outside of the Strip.
His demand for their destruction just reflects his *playing safe and eliminate the slightest threat to my ambitions*-mentality that doesn't know ANY moral boundaries.
It's just another moment that reveals his actual stance towards the value of life and individual people.
You, on the other hand, should know better.
You should know, that they are very small in numbers.
You should know, that they are dying out and are remnants-to-be-soon.
You should know, that their rigid sticking to the codex prevents them gaining fresh blood, und thus is their own doom sigil.
Veronica tells you this several times, even McNamara admits it to her in her quest.
There is no need to annihilate these people, that could be justified with the safety of the region. That is utterly delusional.



Better than Yes Man? Yes Man, that is *YOU*.
Sure, if you(the courier you play) don't have a vision, a plan, or any ambition to help the region, then yes, anything is better than going independent.
You just shouldn't project your own view and personality on the rest.

I'm personally on the fence with House and Yesman, but I do maintain that they are far better choices then NCR or Legion though that discussion, like Tranquillus said, is for another thread.

I didn't want to kill the Brotherhood, but I do see why House would have to.

The Mojave Brotherhood strictly obey their codex which means that they will keep all higher technology out of the hands of civilians...House has an army of robots. Yes, he could negotiate with them and they could have agreed to not move against House, who himself is kept alive through "higher technology", and maybe the brotherhood would even have followed that agreement, but House isn't willing to take that chance.

With the chip being stolen and his heir wanting to depose him, too much has gone wrong. With House the ends justifies the means, the Brotherhood rigidly follow their codex so they are a potential enemy to House. They could have proven to been powerful allies, but House's plans are too important for him to deal in anything but absolutes.

True, they will eventually die out, but that does not preclude them being a destabilizing influence until they do, as they've shown in the past. They're still a paramilitary cult with advanced military hardware, extensive knowledge of pre-war science, and the will the use them maliciously. McNamara seems fairly benign, but he is old, and we see another side of them in Hardin, who wants to start patrolling the Mojave again, which I can only assume also includes seizing or destroying any advanced weaponry. Which the Securitrons most assuredly are. And Veronica's questline makes it quite clear that Hardin isn't just some isolated extremist within the Brotherhood.

Yes, I am aware that Yes Man essentially means the Courier in charge, and that the Courier is an avatar for the player. But is the Courier a cautious, meticulous schemer who is also a technical genius and largely indifferent to human vices? The possibility cannot be precluded since the Courier is a blank slate but his or her actions in game doesn't seem to suggest that. (Not that I haven't thought about this best-case scenario - I've even written a fanfic about it.) Remember that personal combat competence doesn't actually equate to being adept at politics on a regional level, which an independent Mojave will need if it is to survive, with a warlike horde on one side and a fickle industrial democracy on the other.

Still, they aren't idiots. They simply don't have the numbers to challenge a whole army of Mk2 Securitrons, and they are well aware of that.


As stated above, they are not a bunch suicidal idiots. As for Hardin, I always give him a free pineapple
Aside from that, I rather see the positive potential of the BoS for my Indy NV.
They help me against the Legion, and let me join their ranks. so, in a way all the Securitrons are controlled by a BoS guy anyway
Not that I'm sharing their fetish for bulky Tin Can Suits, or their slightly autistic idea of hoarding tech without knowing what for, but they are just a useful group of slightly weird people.



That depends on the respective Courier. He can be anything. A brawler, a diplomat, a scientist, all of that together.
I talked the BoS into supporting the NCR and became a member, I settled things in Freeside without any bloodshed, I talked the Khans out of their alliance, and conviced them to leave, I was able to save the Mojave from another nuclear strike peacefully, just to give a couple of examples.
The same goes for scientific, medical or technical issues.
It's a friggin Lvl50 courier with maxed out skills all over the place, man
You are the Deus Ex Machina, a uberperfect, cybernetically enhanced whim of nature, a walking combination of JC Denton, Conan, Bruce Lee, Albert Einstein, McGyver, Dr. House and Mahatma Gandhi.
And you still really want to have a dried fruit in a fridge to run things for you? C'mon, you can do better

That's not the skill set I was referring to, though. House was able to predict the falling of the bombs to the day, and he sees the big picture - why not to piss off the NCR, when to be harsh and when to let things run their course, when to reveal your winning hand. He is the consummate chessmaster. Persuading the Khans, BoS, Kings, etc. to do his bidding is impressive, but the Courier did all that at the direction of one or another entity - Ambassador Crocker, Colonel Moore, Mr. House, Yes Man. Sure, this hypothetical he improvised to a large extent, but that's the characteristic of a good right-hand man. To be fair, the game itself didn't provide many opportunities to dictate policy on a regional scale, except insofar as choosing which side to support.

About the BoS, I realised I left out a part of what I wanted to say in my last post, which is that when I say 'recovery', I don't mean manpower - that's not going to improve any time soon - but psychological recovery. I got the impression that Helios One was extremely psychologically scarring for the Mojave chapter, to the point of cowering in their bunker, and completing 'Still in the Dark' marks the beginning of this recovery.

They may not be idiots, but they are a cult of fanatics. It's not a stretch to imagine them laying down their lives to 'uphold the ideals of the Codex' or somesuch nonsense.

Only as far as your actions aren't perceived to be going against the Codex. Look at how they treated Veronica, and she had been one of them since birth.

I think, he problably wasn't the only one who saw that one coming.... He's a chessmaster, but he only plays to his very own favor, and that's not that of the Mojave.


What directions? They're giving you mission objectives, not more.
Nobody tells you it's possible to come to an arrangement with the Khans, no one tells you the same for the BoS.
In fact they're implying there's no such thing as a non-violent solution, with Crocker being the exception in case of the Kings.
All what they're saying is "deal with'em", aka kill'em. So, no reason to diminish your own efforts and achievements.
As an Indy player, you're right hand to no one. You are arranging things in a way that suits your very own agenda.
You actually have a much better chance to come to reasonable agreements, as you are roaming around.
You can be faced to, and you know all the factions a lot better than House does.
You're a member of both the BoS and the FotA, you're loved by the Khans, the Boomers and respected by the Kings.
You've dealt with the Legion, the Fiends and the Powder Gangers, and even the driven out NCR shouldn't be overly hostile, as you've (potentially) done a lot a of favors for them(such as taking the Legion out of the game, and saving their President's butt).
And then, you have a Think Tank behind you, allowing you to solve everything with SCIENCE, easily making up for the loss of House's intellectual potential. Simply put, you've made way more friends than House would ever do, giving you a much better perspective to form a thriving Mojave beyond well running casinos.If your courier has such ambitions, of course.

I think it's still quite the way from daring to crawl out of your hole again to *let's go attack anything that has some tech*. McNamara also makes clear, that they are not interested in neither Helios nor the Dam.


If that was true, they'd never retreated from Helios. So I'd say yes, this is pretty far fetched and a simple excuse for a little genocide.


They don't torture her, they don't put her in jail, they don't expel her, they just send her out to do shopping runs. Yeah, they aren't listening, but that's about it.

I like the Brotherhood and I always try to save them, but I can completely understand why House would want to have them destroyed.

Its true that Mcnamara could hypothetically be persuaded to join with House and maybe he will even stand by an agreement to not interfere with him, but House doesn't know this. He sees the Brotherhood as fanatics that try to steal technology at every opportunity, he saw how hard they fought to try and keep Helios One. They could prove to be a powerful enemy to him if even a few Paladins decide that their Elder isn't following the Codex. Because there is this possibility House feels that he needs to play it safe and have them all wiped out, he can't have any threats to his plans for New Vegas.

Eh, I interpreted "deal with them" much more vaguely that you did it seems, you heard "kill 'em all", I heard "make it so that they aren't a problem for us any more".

I'm not quite sure we're on the same page regarding ability versus vision.

They almost did though. McNamara definitely strikes me as a moderate among the Mojave BoS, as the others tell it it was him that saved the chapter by ordering the retreat. As I've pointed out though, Hardin.

I'm not saying it isn't murder, by the way. Just that in the bigger scheme of things it seems justified to me. It's not like House is slaughtering a bunker of civilians on the off-chance that they'll bad-mouth him. The BoS is a paramilitary cult with the hardware, know-how and motive to cause serious damage (just look at the havoc just four of the Remnants caused at Hoover Dam. And they're a bunch of rusty old fogeys, not in their prime like the BoS), which I feel is an important distinction.

You forgot the part where they tried to liquefy her for leaving the Brotherhood.

Strange, I thought Moore was always pretty clear in what her expectationa are, as is House or Caesar.


So being well equipped and knowledgable is enough to deserve death and extinction?
You still want to repeat Houses's propaganda speech and ignore the reality, that they simply are in no position to be the threat as House is trying to make up?
Perhaps we shouldn't go any further here.
Just one more thing: If you believe something good could evolve out of a thouroughly evil deed, you're already morally lost.
You can do as House tells you, but you should stop painting that as a service to mankind.
You're only serving one specific person, a self-proclaimed autocrat, who wants anyone dead that could interfere with his agenda.
Be prepared for further exterminations for the sake of the "Big Picture".




You point at the actions of a few individuals to forge your verdict over an entire community.
You'll never get me in that boat.
If one of your work mates commits a crime, you sure don't want to be held responsible for it, just because you're working in the same office, don't ya?

Two things.

Being well-equipped (nice way of putting it, but let's not lose sight that this equipment is military equipment) and knowledgable in using these weapons of war is but part of the reason. The more important part is that they have shown the willingness to commit deadly and disproportionate violence in service to their cause, and that that cause is one which puts them in direct opposition against House.

Secondly, they are in no position to be a threat at the moment. That’s because they are (a) being led by McNamara, and (b ) still recovering psychologically from Helios One. Neither is a situation that will last indefinitely.

An idealistic thought, but not one that has any relation to reality. It's dangerous to indulge in such thinking, it's true, because it can be used to justify all manner of depravity, but to categorically state that nothing good can come out of an immoral act is simply incorrect. The classic example here is Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A huge tragedy? Yes. Evil? Maybe. But something good came out of it - many, many more (quite literally a hundred times as many) lives both American and Japanese would have been lost had the Americans been forced to invade Japan the traditional way.

I'm not sure I ever said nor implied that it would be a service to a nebulous 'mankind'. But it would be a service to the Mojave (the region) and an independent Mojave (the cause). If you support House, and you fail to eliminate the Brotherhood, it's very likely that you're setting the Mojave up for a destructive guerrilla war in the near future. I have no doubt House would eventually win but it would destabilize the Mojave greatly and as a David hemmed in between two Goliaths an independent Mojave cannot afford that.

I feel like I have to emphasize again the paramilitary nature of the Brotherhood. I’ve avoided using this phrase before because it’s so loaded, but basically they are a terrorist cell. This is not a bunch of intellectuals printing pamphlets denouncing House.

I am not saying that pre-emptive extermination is a good thing in general. But in this instance I think we’ve seen enough of House to know that he would not employ excessive violence unless he thought it was necessary, and he’s not a paranoid psychopath. In other words, I trust that House has thought this through, and isn't being petty. Maybe our difference in opinion boils down to an assessment of his personality.

Well no. But if my office sells a vicious chemical weapon and I am part of the process (even if it’s say, just to oversee the inventory) I’m sure you’ll agree that “I was just following instructions and doing my job” isn’t an adequate defense.

But I digress. Yeah, I am pointing to the actions of the few individuals, because they are representative of that community. This is a game, and if the objective truth in-game was that a few members would have leapt to Veronica's defense, the devs would have found a way to work it in somehow. They're very consistent in doing that for the other factions. We're shown two distinct sides of the Brotherhood - one, as personified by McNamara, a kind of weary resignation and acceptance that they're going to fade away; the other, personified by Hardin and those Paladins, an aggressively xenophobic and ruthless attitude. Neither show any sign of being able to compromise their precious Codex, which I guess is what it ultimately comes down to. Maybe if we're given any indication that they could bend the Codex a little, we can believe that House and the BoS could have come to an understanding. But that's not what we're shown at all. Even in the NCR ending the condition for their alliance was the NCR turning in their salvaged power armor.

A similar stance can be seen in democracies that ban fascist political parties. It's fine and dandy to state absolutely that everyone should have their say no matter how extreme but some exceptions should be, and were, made for the preservation of the institution itself. There's a famous saying that goes "those who would sacrifice a little freedom for a little security deserve neither" (paraphrasing) but that's kind of a silly stance if you think about it for more than five seconds, since a society by definition sacrifices some freedom for a degree of security. It's all in where you draw the line.

Hm. Kinda went on a tangent on that last bit. Oh well.

I wouldn't believe that the Independent New Vegas would stay that way, but rather be taken over by ambitious Yes Man... just a theory though, and the chaos is cut down a bit later on.

Actually Josh Sawyer confirmed that his "reprogramming" is simply a method he is using to only be loyal to the Courier. It prevents another person just walking up to Yes Man and convincing him to suit his own needs, just like the Courier did to Benny.

I refused to play any independent playthroughs until i read the forum on it.

They occupied Helios One, and refused to hand it over to the NCR.
Yes that pulled them into a battle they couldn't win, but it's not like they commited some obscene atrocities against humanity.


And they will never be again, as they are lacking the sheer numbers, more than ever.
And as we know, the codex will maintain this Status Quo.
I know, you are constantly ignoring that fact, because you don't have a valid point against it, but that won't stop me from reminding you




That is highly questionable. a lot of historical sources indicate, that Japan was already willing to capitulate.
With the first bomb you could have argued, no one really knew what would happen exactly.
The bomb on Nagasaki was not more than cynical field research.
Ask the ten thousands of survivors who died slowly and horribly afterwards about the 'good', even decades after...


You have nothing to back that claim up, other than an urgent need to justify a little mass murder


Yeah, i've seen enough of him, too. Obviously my observations were a bit different.
House doesn't know moral categories. The only thing he cares about, is securing his own position.
That's the reason, why he employs the snuff-affine Omertas, why he doens't give a damn sh** about everything outside the Strip, and why he wants the BoS exterminated.
The slightest possible chance of a danger is enough for him to extinguish other peoples lives.
On the other hand, he pays no attention to what's happening in his own yard, as longs as the caps are rolling.
The usual behaviour of a, let's use the term applied in the end slide to him, Tyrant.



You are not really believing this, or?
It was the ambition of the developers to illustrate the downfall of a former major power.
A downfall which is heavily propelled by overzealous sticking to an outdated ruleset, and the unwillingness to adjust and react to new conditions.
For sure it was not the intention of the developers to make up some silly plot enabling the leaders to read the minds of every single member, thus sending a Veronica rescue squad that renders the Courier unnecessary....buut I think I don't need to tell you that

So you basically followed a made up, backed by nothing conspiracy theory of Yes Man going Skynet? Lulz.
There was never ever any indication in the game for that, and just playing through the game once should have reassured everyone what utter tosh that claim was.

That's not the point, House saw that they were very capable fighters and the majority would have stayed and died to uphold their Codex.
House gives no indication that he knows the Mojave Brotherhood will die out and even if he did he can't afford to let them learn of the advanced technology he has because he knows that their Codex will force the Brotherhood to try and take it from him.
I think the discussion should stay in the game.
The Codex of the Mojave Brotherhood demands that they acquire all advanced technology they can. You see in the game that they aren't willing to stray from the Codex even to save their own chapter.
The Omerta's were a wasteland gang before House found them. The only criteria for him was that they were powerful. He leaves the rest of the Mojave alone, but he is trying to remake humanity. The only people he actually gets you to kill are the Brotherhood and possibly the assassins for Kimball. Both of these groups have plans of their own that directly conflict with House's, he can't afford to leave them be.
Ramos had to have seen the Paladins leave and he did nothing about it. Whether this dev over sight or on purpose, who knows.

I agree about what the Mojave Brotherhood represent. A former major power dying out because they zealously follow an outdated ruleset and cannot react to new conditions. It is exactly because of this same ruleset that House feels he must have them destroyed. Not only are they a threat to him, but their beliefs are offensive to him. He is the founder of Robco and he personally designed many robots that he built to improve the lives of regular people and now he sees a rogue paramilitary group attempting to take all forms of technology away from people.

It was Elijah's fanatism, that held them there. Once he was gone, they immediately retreated.


Their Codey does not demand suicidical efforts. You too, ignore with a passion that they simply don't have the manpower to even think about it.




see above




exactly


He is pretty clear about that. He wants to establish an autocracy, with him as immortal dictator.
His visions do not evolve around the people, they are mere tools and disposable mass for his personal ambitions.




Yes, exactly. What's getting in the way needs to be terminated. A despicable bunch like the Omertas are acceptable if they prove to be useful.
That is an outlook for the "remake of humanity" by Mr. House



Like Roni said, there are douchbags in every family, and so the quest was designed to illustrate that with a confrontation at the end.



Yes, this is what House thinks. But the question was, if the extermination of a whole faction, children and old folks included, just for the reason of fear could be morally justified.


and many more to end these lives


The BoS only technological interest are weapons. That too, is one of the reasons for their downfall.

I've lost sight about what is being discussed. Is it about House's destruction of the Mojave Brotherhood, House in general or the Codex?