Thank you ShadeMe. And a BIG thank you to Freddo!




I'm sorry you feel that way. Consider it an explanation to everyone who's expectations are too high. There's really A LOT that goes into game development, and if you'd go to the 'ask the devs' thread and ask them a legitimate question concerning what it takes to implement one particular thing, they would probably tell you something similar. Yes, they may have more experience, but that doesn't mean you can do 'everything.'

why do you need chance to hit for a weapon, if you hit him then you hit him, if you dont than you dont, this would be more for an mmo game.

It purely depends on how you look at it. You can swing a sword and graze your enemy instead of hitting some deliciously meaty flesh. You don't always have a 100% chance to hit every single time, things would be terribly unrealistic, especially if the modifiers took into account the weight of the weapon and overall strength of the armor.

So this is calculated in a breadth of a second into a single and really basic sword swipe? Its a big leap from dicerolling to computers with the time it takes to calculate these equations.

From what you've stated already I'm guessing the Indie game your developing is RPG style or is it just something you know from a wider experience?

Any details you can give to the project your working on or is it underwraps?


-Scalemen : Its really all about what kind of game you want, if you want an RPGish statistic kind of play there is a miss/hit ratio equation to follow, if its more of say....an FPs type game it wouldn't include such a feature. Something about player skill vs character skill kind of thing I think.

Well see, back in the dim past before everything got "FPS-ized," you could (brace yourself, now- this could be a disturbing revelation) miss. This even persisted in TES up through Morrowind. So if it's possible to miss, then you only have a chance to hit and that chance has to be defined.

Bonus points for knowing what "THAC0" stands for.

All I can say about the game we're attempting to develop is that it's along the lines of an old school dungeon crawler, with a heavy emphasis on statistics (like the days of yore). Yes, there are several of them out there, but we're hoping to hit the niche audience and make the game difficult, yet fun.

And yes, that's just a basic modifier. If you had, say, a swipe, back-hand, horizontal swing, thrust, etc.... There would hopefully be modifiers in place to determine if you did them in succession, or as a single blow.

THAC0 has something to do with to hit ratios with armor classes of zero.

I'd like to add: If done right, you can combine player skill and statistical anolysis. It just takes a lot of work, as each mechanic you introduce has to be thoroughly tested to make sure it works. That's why you start with the basics and then when you know it works, you throw in the convoluted mess of enchantments, charms, other attributes.........

I am old enough to remember those days and in many respects I'm pleased lots of games have moved beyond it and been 'FPS-ized' as you put it. It may go against many peoples idea of role playing but I like the idea of player skill rather than die roles determining to-hit in combat.

Edit: too clarify, my preference probably has a lot to do with the fact that I prefer ranged weapons.

I don't mind using the mechanic here or there. But ultimately I agree with the character skill, its always a bit more fun when your doing the hitting.:hehe:

-Xiro/ I'll keep a watch for it(whatever its called). I'm guessing it won't be out for a good long time though.

Your polite response makes me feel like an a-hole.

God. Damn. It.

cf_nz: You are not in a minority. However, I'd like to try and take that a step further. You can FPS-ize an RPG game without losing both in the process, and I think that was part of the intention behind the basis of TES. They wanted to give the player more control of the PC during battle, and this can be seen as early as Arena.

However, I think some things have been lost in translation as the series has progressed. What I mean by that is: Giving the player the skill to hit isn't a problem. Giving the player the skill to ALWAYS hit is. No matter how good a swordsman is, they're not always going to hit their mark. They could somehow get off balance, or perhaps the enemy has side-stepped mid-swing, and therefore you aren't slamming the armor, rather just slightly rolling across it. Take into account that, that alone could possible cause them to become off balance, allowing you to get a better hit in... Sadly, I haven't seen this implemented in any game yet. It's an EXTREMELY difficult task to add that in, which is why it hasn't been done yet.

yea, i remember playing morrowind, and it was extremley annoying when i was standing in front of an enemie, swinging my heart off, and i kept on missing most of the time.

Oh siegewar. Don't. You're just defending your personal opinion, and that's what is great about discussions!

Plus, on many occasion, I have agreed with what you've posted in other threads, even though I haven't posted anything at all. You could say... You said it so well I didn't have to comment.

Some kind of armour equation against damage. On a basic level: Certain types of armour would be easier to take a blow or glance one from say a bladed slash attack from a sword would be more difficult to land than a mace hit to a mail shirt. Then of curse as you said you take into account all the other equations for elemental, DR/DT, DPS, crit hit multipliers, etc. It all becomes very overwhelmng to create a a complex damage system.

* At this moment thousand of codes have spiraled through my mind causing great dizziness* :bonk:

- Xiro is killing us with kindness, that sonofa[censored]! :biggrin:

Like I said originally, the sole intention of this post is to hopefully help some people who want everything in the game, to realize that some things have to be cut for the sake of getting the game out on time, in working form. We've all been in wait for Duke Nukem Forever, and for awhile, the name itself became a parody of what the game was supposed to be.

I have a team of 8 people. 2 of them are graphic design artists who know NOTHING about programming, let alone how to put their work into the game. We're all taking on additional work just to see how far we can go with our project. For all we know it may never work, but at least we're trying. Shoot, I'm a computer engineering STUDENT with an emphasis on building HARDWARE, so my programming skills are pretty light. To say the least, it would be nice to have an additional X number of people working on the project, but we're all doing it for free right now. Motivation has to be high when you're not paid for something, so you could imagine what it would be like for a team of 100, who have 'the boss' breathing down their backs telling them time and again 'we're losing money guys, let's go! Get the ball rolling... What do you have to show me today?' and stuff along those lines.

Bethesda is building us our next life sink-hole, and me and my team plan to take a small hiatus when 11/11/11 comes around.


Oh, and I can't help it that I'm nice. Having a wife, a wonderful 6 month old son (who WILL pitch in the majors one day, I swear!) and everything going 'right' in your life helps with the upbeat outlook.

Personally, I don't think Skyrim will be Dumbed Down compared to Oblivion, hell, Fallout 3 had more depth, so there's no real precedent. Someone could argue Daggerfall V. Morrowind V. Oblivion precedent, but I feel Morrowind had as much to offer as Daggerfall, through the detail in the world itself, it just took a little bit of effort on the players part. My only real concern right now for Skyrim, is a disjointed feel. With a huge team, it's going to take superior direction and coordination to make sure all the team comes together to create a unified piece of brilliance. The magic of The Elder Scrolls games, has always been an ability to be a sum more of it's parts through direction, even Oblivion can boast that. But with more people, it gets harder to make sure everyone's on the same page, and inspired the same way.

I think the big problem with the Morrowind - Oblivion jump, was we took a lot of Morrowind for granted. Those small things that made it special. Something like being able to walk into a persons house, and find a skooma pipe and some moon sugar under the bed, a copy of "The Lust Argonian Maid" hidden behind a dresser, and, quite literally, a fleshed-out culture to explore (Native Ashland) all were those overlooked gems that helped sell the world as a truly living place.

While I myself have no true developer background, I have had considerable training in Programming, animation and writing(Always my favorite part), so I know better than most, just how difficult it is just to get something simple working. Much less get something complex working with 160,000 other complex things. Still, the people who are totally ignorant of the difficulties are of great use to developers, their unrestricted view might inspire some things a trained developer would have immedietly disregarded as "Too hard" or "Not worth it" so everyone has their part to play. If you want to make Demands of BGS rather than suggestions though, you should probably make your own games.

See, I think that a lot of the 'Bethesda can implement this' threads have a look down on the forum, a lot of OPs get angry when others don't agree.


I've read a lot of Small Time developer posts, and, unlike many others, Xiro makes a lot of sense. But you've got this sorted now.

Well said, OP! I don't know much about developing - but what you say makes sense.
Ive saved the link for this thread, so I can give it to any 'its easy' threads.

You're right. They can help push the envelope. However, sometimes it can only be pushed so far. As far as Skyrim goes, we know we're getting a new combat system, the addition of a perks system which allows the player to selectively flesh-out their character, a dynamic quest system based upon the events you have and have not completed, additional factions competing for land and the view of the population.... Those few things by themselves probably took a long time to not only code into the game, but to sit down and determine why they're there... What their intents and purposes are... Who they're fighting against and for what reason....

Because of all these new features, some things which may have originally been on the list to get into the game have/had to be cut. It's a shame, but let's hope those cut items can make their way in via DLC. But keeping in mind that the game will be good. Oh yes, it will.

c'mon you know that everyone here wished that they worked for bethesda, so dont make it sound so bad, who cares how much work you have to do, if you like what you do then you can do it 24/7 and its still going to be fun.

Hi Xiro

Have you considered Unity3D? It is perfect for what you are planning and the systems you want to design for. Also it will be quite friendly to your graphics team. Nice to see some enthusiasm for Indie Dev. Just remember the demographic you are aiming for is quite/very crowded with titles and sometimes it pays to make a few games that will sell easily so you can get your feet wet and have more experience to pump into your main idea. Also helps from getting discouraged. Age old words of advise are "your first 10 games are going to svck, so get them out of the way quickly".

Good luck

I find it a bit odd that a developer's standpoint stresses RPG ruleset design rather than overall game development. Most of the unreasonable demands and unrealistic hopes for Skyrim features I see aren't feasible because of other development factors. Deciding how your sword attack vs. armour + variables works is really the easy part, when you consider that the animators have to make it move right; the artists have to make the sword, the guy swinging it, and the armour it's hitting; and the programmers have to make it happen. Older RPGs tend to have a lot more content (look at Daggerfall) because what takes so much time and manpower isn't RPG design, but the production of the art assets required to create a game with modern graphics.

I know very little about engine programming though, so I can't comment on that.

Interesting post, but I don't think it's as valuable as it's being vaunted as -- meaning no offense at all -- partly because you haven't given much insight into the full breadth of game development, and partly because the people who might learn from it probably won't read it.

Believe me. I wish I spent more time with the CS. Todd said it himself, he wants to see what people can do with it, and a lot of times that is how people get 'in' to the business. Any game developer for that matter feels the same way. There are several small studios which are bought up by Valve every year or so, because they've done things with Source that they didn't dream of. Heck, Source is STILL used today, as it's a highly configurable system, much like the CS is from Bethesda, and can look amazing depending on what you do with it. It can also be combined with other technologies, much like Gamebryo.

I've tried to get my team to look at the CS, but they're a stubborn bunch. The most I've ever been able to do with it is a few simple texture modifications, but time constraints (other games I have the desire to play and pull inspiration from) get in the way. Every developer out there will tell you they play others' games, especially competitors to see what they're doing, and see if it can be put into your next game. It's a cycle. I'm just surprised I haven't seen another studio want to do something along the lines of a TES clone. There really isn't one game out there that comes close to the sheer complexity. At least, that I've personally seen here in the US. It could be different overseas, as many of those games never see the light of day over here.

well written and i agree, nice to see things from a different perspective.

While I read the original post, I didn't read the whole thread, so this might've been said. Sorry if it was...



Isn't that the cool thing about working? Doing hard things and solving problems? I'm somewhat indifferent towards the small bits that are cut out of the game, but if I was into game development wouldn't I enjoy taking on these objectives?

If you hate your day job, then skipping these things is understandable, but if you love what you do, than challenging yourself and your team ought to be a part of the joy that comes out of work.

One of the things people chime up again and again is how things are broken in previous installments of a game franchise. Since we're on a BGS forum, I'll use the spears and levitation arguments as an example.

If your athleticism was high enough in Morrowind, it was easy to back-peddle, forward-stab to get the most damage out of the weapon, coupled with the 'always use best hit' toggle in the menu. This means you would miss more often, but when you did hit you could practically one-hit an enemy. For some reason, gamesas thought it best to scrap this weapon entirely, most likely due to the fact it was probably difficult to get the enemy scripting to NOT always stab, or perhaps they couldn't get them TO stab enough with the addition of the new combat system in Oblivion. It was probably harder to try and fix the problem than scrap it, so they opted to scrap. I would also like to add, that during my 4 years playing MW, I rarely encountered an enemy using a spear, and when I did, I just used magic. Not to mention, a spear is longer than a sword, and you could easily just stand far enough away and never be hit by the enemy - but then that brings up the idea behind bows... this was combated by giving many NPCs magic or a bow of their own to ward off a ranged attacker...

As for levitation, there really isn't much of a way to fix the exploit people would use to 'win' the game. I'm sure they tried to use a form of levitation in Oblivion as well. However, much like I said above, it was probably difficult to get the NPC to act and react accordingly with the scripting system. I could easily see an NPC with a high amount of magicka stupidly deciding to keep casting the spell and go higher and higher into the sky, following the PC until they run out of magicka, only to fall to their death.... Or the same could be said if they followed you off a very high cliff...

To tell you the truth, the only thing that i have worked with is sketch up and blender 3d, but sometimes i can spend the whole day doing something and completley loose track of time, it gets really interesting, especially if you are trying to figure out how to make it work better, so far i have only worked on the topology of faces, but its these types of challenges that make it so interesting.