It always amuses me, of all the years I've been reading this forum, how people act and react to others' opinions and suggestions.....

I'll be honest here, I enjoyed Morrowind more than Oblivion, but it wasn't because MW seemed larger, or had harder quests, or was this or that, because it was none of those things. It also doesn't mean I disliked Oblivion, as I enjoyed the bejesus out of it... One thing in particular - my favorite was how you could hop onto houses in MW. When tried in OB you literally slid off the roofs. As I said in another thread, and I'll mirror here, we're a small number of players compared to the rest of the community, and that is the whole forum, its not just the fabled "lovers of MW." There are several other websites that offer insight for the developers at Bethesda, and it's no wonder they look at more than just the official forum. You get an idea of what the majority of the gamers want, and most often, it is not what most RPG purists want, which generally dominate this forum, and is also another reason we see so much passion from the fan base here...


However, that is not to say Oblivion wasn't a bad game, it was actually quite good, and personal preferences are what make games unique. I know many people who prefer Call of Duty 4 to Black Ops, or we could even say people enjoyed CoD4 more than BO because of the ingenuity behind the game itself.... I can only wish when our project is done that we have as much love as I see here. We don't have a website yet as we're just now transitioning INTO the development phase, and none of us have the money for server space (and no, we did try the whole free server thing, that did NOT work out well)....


Now, let's get on with the original idea behind this post, with some developmental mechanics brought into perspective...


Being a first-time game developer, you learn A LOT of what it takes to implement something as seemingly simple as a stab attack with a weapon.. ANY weapon. Sure, you'd think it's as simple as writing 30 lines of code, right? Ha! No, not really. But I won't bludgeon you all to death with that peculiarity. No, there's a lot more that goes into it. There is the base damage modifier, the damage effect modifier, the defense modifier, hit location (if it's implemented), weapon modifiers such as base weapon damage and per-hit critical percentage, etc.. Once you iron that out, you then have to sculpt the actual usage of the mechanic into the game with animations and various other feedback mechanics which must be built.


Are all weapons of equal length? If not, then the longest one, regardless of damage is most likely going to be better, because if there is a per-hit knock-back percentage modifier that is tied to some of the other damage modifiers I have listed, then you can easily see how the weapon can become slightly unbalanced. The same goes for ranged weaponry, which is why they're generally nerfed to an insane degree (instead of them changing at an incremental rate of .5%-1% (for example) per increase of the bow skill + level of dexterity, they're given a special modifier in the tenths to the thousandths...) Anyways, all of that can take up A LOT of time to sit down and figure out. Sure, once you get the base mechanic built, you can then just go and copy-paste different statistics and skins, but keep in mind this is just one weapon, and ONE attack method. Try looking at this on the scale of a TES game, and you'll see very quickly why some things tend to be cut from the game.



The argument should then become something more like this: Seeing as the Creation Engine* is a rebuilt and retooled Gamebryo**, which is also a rebuilt and retooled NetImmerse***, you would think they would still have the source code for the nixed items. They probably do, but it's also possible that now they've changed things so much they would practically have to re-write the base implementation over again. This could mean disastrously long development time, and instead, they've chosen a slightly easier route. If you ask me, Bethesda may have grown a bit too big, with the same ambitions prior to Oblivion, but they can't always give people what they want, and therefore have to sacrifice some things to complete the game... DLC? Sure, you could probably add it in then, but you would then have to look at the development and end cost, and we all remember horse armor.....


Saying that though, makes it look as if I'm 'bringing down the house' so to speak on Bethesda. Actually, I'm giving everyone a perspective no-one considers on this forum. A team of 100 people can do A LOT in 5 years if the whole team is dedicated to the work 100% of the time. However, Bethesda Game Studios licensed the Fallout franchise, which took a chunk of the Softworks developers to craft a new world. Skyrim and FO3 were being developed side-by-side, and as items were completed for FO3, those teams were then shifted to Skyrim. It is my belief that since Gamebryo was already out, their core engine developers worked on retooling GB into CE, and once that was completed, the game world was then being mapped, etc.. Wait! Acquisition of ID Software and GIP's they've been working on.. When a company becomes this ambitious, they have to shuffle people around a lot, and therefore development time can stall. What I'm saying here is: Give them a break.


I would love to have spears, and levitation, and a game world that's massive with multiple factions and political infighting, and I really wouldn't care how nice and shiny the graphics are, because my personal opinion is that we've gotten off the path of what it means to create a game world for it's overall implementation. Instead, developers have seen time and time again that graphics are what people want, and therefore that is the route we've taken. Again, I can't stress it enough that it is my opinion on the subject matter, and should no way upset people because I feel more can be done with xbox 360 technology if we tone down the graphics a bit and focus more on what you can 'do' than what you 'see'. But it is what it is, and we get what we get. Skyrim WILL be a great game, regardless of missing features from previous titles, as that was proven with the transition from Daggerfall to Morrowind. Yes, I enjoyed scaling every wall I could grasp my nails on in DF, and I totally enjoyed the underground labyrinths where I needed to use levitation... I also enjoyed jumping my way across Morrowind, and using those silly Acrobatics spells I found early on in the game - as long as I hit a mountain I didn't die... But, I did also enjoy some aspects of Oblivion like the now hidden combat modifier system which was a bit grittier on feedback, not perfect, but it was better. I also liked the idea behind Radiant AI....


But just remember, that even though we don't always get what we truly desire, it doesn't mean it's going to break the game. Bethesda does listen, but it's the extent to which they listen. They'd rather have 1 million people buy the game than 200,000. Remember, I'm trying to develop a game with 8 people, and personally I'd rather have 1 million people buy the game than 200,000.


So we won't have things that some people really enjoyed from previous titles (athletics and acrobatics as separate skills is a personal fave) but the game will be great, and you'll be svcked in for months on end. So please, cut gamesas some slack. At the end of the day, the developers want to hear what you like about the trailer and screenshots, what info they've released, etc.. Not why you're gonna hunt them down and explain to them why beast races should be more like their real-world counterparts, or how mad you'll be when you can't choose a birthsign (on this topic, I think the new system will be great... I mean, instead of just choosing the birthsign, it actually gets fleshed out based on what skills and perks you choose to increase, which I feel is a more realistic way of showing what birthsign you SHOULD be born under, especially in a game where the PC has amnesia and goes on to learn of their grand story within the game world and blah blah blah)...


*Creation Engine is used in Skyrim, and hopefully many other 3rd party titles due to it's robust feature set.
**Gamebryo is the engine featured in Oblivion, and several other 3rd party titles for those who don't know.
***NetImmerse is the first truly 3D engine used by Bethesda, written by Numerical Design Limited.

Can we get a tl;dr?

Or at least more Enters.

Sorry, it's a bit difficult for me to be short-winded. I'll do the best I can do.

Sadly, that's the best I can do. If it's too long, or boring, just don't read it. There are a few on here who might spend a few minutes of their time in doing so. Otherwise, snipping too much loses the point of the post.

For those who don't wanna read the whole thing: Basically, it's a discussion about why things aren't always as easy to implement into a game as one would think.

Thanks and I agree completely!

That was really long-winded of you. I do believe people are being over-dramatic about how "dumbed down" Skyrim could be. Ultimately, it depends on the direction BGS wants to take the game, and whether what they want to do is feasible and practical enough to get into the game within a timely manner. Honestly, the dragons alone are going to make this game a keeper in my opinion. If BGS is able to keep them, fresh, new, and interesting with each encounter, seeing a dragon swoop down will never get old. I personally like to see BGS try new things and figure new and creative ways of rebuilding their games. Overall I think it's much more rewarding than getting a Morrowind 2 or a game that's clearly just an upgrade of the predecessor.

finally someone said it. i have been wanting to tell people to chill and just let bethesda do there thing forever but i dont have the experience you do. Also im not that smart to comprehend half the things you said about computers. Everyone who keeps on saying that the TES series is gonna svck because of no spears and levitation needs to read this

Loooooong-winded yes, but as short as I could snip it as well.

I have a bad habit of posts like this on other forums as well. Many consider me the plague of words.

well ive seen people make some threads longer than this, but personally i never read anything longer than two paragraphs, not that its not worth reading but thats just the way my mind works.

A plague implies suffering. I for one can definitely appreciate your long but well thought out and constructive post.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1179772-can-your-characters-motivations-be-realized/

PS: The Enters worked like magic. It's 3 a.m. here.

Ah. East coast I see. 2am here.

Wow love your generalizing.

And snipping things usually does get rid of valuable pieces of info, but more often than not its usually just fluff.(Like yours!)

Personally I never had the intention of seeing any of these ideas implemented, its just fun to daydream about the game. And maybe discuss character bulds and other such things and how they might work. Its funny to even concieve the idea that Beth bases ther dicisions on the forums so it doesn't matter, and this thread is unneeded.

And stop giving this "Looking down on the forums" vibe. Its annoying.

Besides the people your trying to persuade will not even bother to read your whole post.

Meh, I didn't get that vibe at all.

I thought it was an interesting post, but not much to discuss because I mostly just agree.

It was interesting to learn some basic descriptions of how they apply weapon damage and such.

But the ranting parts stuck with me.

*You'd be surprised to know just how much the developers were on the forums in the late 90's through the development of Oblivion. Many ideas for the games come specifically from the fan base, as networking is one of the ways a development studio progresses a franchise. It is needed more-so for a game as ambitious as The Elder Scrolls, because they want to know what worked and why, what didn't and if they can fix it, and how to bring the next-best-thing to light. As gamesas has grown, their teams were most likely asked to not interact as much with the fan base due to how large it has become. You'd have literally hundreds of people asking for information regarding such-and-such or so-and-so, and would anger a lot of people when they don't divulge said information. That's the main reason smaller studios can get away with it, as the fan base is also smaller. However, there are other threads that have the listed information as to what has been implemented from the forum, so I ask it to not be discussed here in full, as a courtesy.

**I'm not 'looking down on the forum.' I'm here daily. What's annoying is seeing the same thread a million times over, from hundreds of different people, where the same people who have never tried to build a game say how easy it is to implement something. You could even ask the modding community just how difficult it is to create something without breaking something else in the game world.

***Then they will miss out on a very important tidbit of what it takes to create a game. It's not easy, as many times when you add something it breaks something, and then you're tasked with trying to fix what you broke. This is the art of bug hunting.

And I wasn't generalizing. I know most people won't read a post that is more than a few paragraphs, as that is how the internet is. It's not a knock to anyone, as I am known to do the same. On some of the purely developer-centric forums I am a member of, I sometimes shy away from posts that are as large as mine for many reasons: Either it's late, like Frodo said, or maybe what is written is of no importance to me, or my team.

And i'm sure the OP toned it down. I can think of more modifiers for an intricate battle system one being power attacks.

This^ sadly.

What platform are you shooting for OP just out of curiosity since you mentioned Xbox is it an arcade title or are you shooting for an indie game on steam.

Alright, gimme a sec to write out a simple modifier mechanic and I'll edit this post in a few minutes.

thatkajiitbock: As of right now, we're looking at the Android platform utilizing Flash, so most likely co-development on PC and Android... However, we do know the importance of iOS as well, so it's not out of the question once we get a working version to port over. I also have a couple people looking into core engine management and design for a true 3D game that can be played on Xbox 360, PC, Android, and iOS. But, we don't have any money, and I'm working with a couple attorney's to see if there's any money to be had for an upstart from the Government - we may be able to just license an engine and play with it until we get what we like.

i wonder if our technology has advanced at all in the sense of reducing bugs in games, for example, i remeber playing games 10 years ago that were 10x less buggy than the ones made today, i know that the games made today have more content, but still c'mon.

It costs big cash to get onto XBLA. The best negotiation for a title without solid numbers behind is 20k plus MS takes 30%,but if you had special accommodation with MS just 30%. Like super meat boy or dishwasher had. The 20,000 to cover certification testing.

Well spoken, OP

A correction here: NetImmerse was developed by Numeric Design Limited, not Bethesda. It was the precursor to Gamebryo. More info - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetImmerse. Beth licensed the engine for their games and modified it as they went.

tl;dr: lame, small-time developer rants about why we shouldn't expect too much from Bethesda

yawn

I can't edit my post, but here is a simple way of doing a damage modifier mumatil:

For the sake of time, and people's eyes, let me see if I can give a general grasp of a simple implementation of a damage modifier system:

We'll use 2 basic attributes of Strength and Dexterity.

Strength governs how much damage you do, and how much damage you can take
Dexterity governs how quickly you can attack, and your evasion ability

PC Str = up to +8
PC Dex = up to +12

We will use a simple weapon, with a single-use mechanic known as a swing.

Sword:

Base Damage = +3-5
Speed = Fast = +2 dps
Chance to hit % = .5


Now, we will look at how we implement the simple mechanic. For this case, we will be multiplying, dividing, and adding the numbers, and the system would generally use a dice-roll program to do the math, but we will use static numbers.

Swing modifier Str: +8(+3 to +5) with the dice rolling +4 = +32
Swing modifier Dex: +12*+2 = +24
Chance to hit % .5
32*.5 = 16
24*.5 = 12
16+12 = 28 which will be use to calculate both the damage and true swing speed modifiers to be applied to the base numbers of weapon damage and swing speed
28/16 = 1.75
28/12 = 2.34

1.75*+4 = 7 Damage dealt
at a speed of 4.34 dps

Plenty of other games use the NetImmerse engine. Simon the Sorcerer 3D, Prince of Persia 3D, Dark Age of Camelot and Freedom Force just to mention a few. Morrowind use NetImmerse 3.x, which some complained about when it was released, as NetImmerse 4.x was released some year before that and offered better LOD and some other stuff.

So NetImmerse wasn't built by Bethesda but built and developed by Numerical Design Limited (NDL). And then when NetImmerse 5.x was about to be released they, for some reason, decided it was time for a name change and changed it to Gamebryo. Around this time NDL also merged with another company and changed name to Emergent Game Technologies (EGT). Now a few years later Gamebryo Lightspeed is availble which is pretty much Gamebryo 3.

Also, one thing that is important to remember here is that NetImmerse/Gamebryo are pretty much only a renderer, not a "full" engine like Unreal Engine and more popular game engines. So the AI, physics, controls, quest system and many aspects of the game were stuff that Bethesda had to write themselves or license another middleware engine like Havok for the physics.

So with Oblivion, what Bethesda did was to license a bunch of middleware engines (Gamebryo, Havok, Speedtree, Facegen, Bink and so on), and then put them together with their own code and got their own tech that way. With Skyrim it's still a bit unclear how much they made own their own and how much they licensed, although we do know they use Havok now too. But they still use the nif format, and that's a part of Emergent's Gamebryo.