Okay, well I've obviously misunderstood some aspects of both mods. Perhaps I installed WAC at high enough a level that I didn't realize how extreme it can be--for a while I was actually under the impression that the creatures actually did spawn based on the level of the player; I probably just encountered a lot of creatures equal in power just by chance because everything I ran into seemed about the same challenge as the vanilla creatures I was running into. About when I ran into the giant green she-demons is when I realized things might not be how I assumed they were. Have I just failed to read the right stuff or is WAC very poorly documented? There's the main forum post and the relatively brief readme, and that's about all I was able to learn from. Maybe I misread something or overlooked some part that explained all of this, but I think I would have known for sure when installing it in what manner the creatures spawned.

I'm still quite confused about the definition of "overhaul" and how it relates to level-scaling, even after reading that post. How does MMM not change level-scaling? Based on its description ("Statically scaled leveling -- meet creatures and NPCs more powerful than you, and less powerful than you, regardless of your level as you level"), it spawns creatures regardless of your level, which is different from what the vanilla game does. Am I misunderstanding? Because that's what WAC does as well, except as far as I know it only does it for the creatures it adds. To me that makes them both overhauls if the definition is "changes level-scaling" and MMM a more extensive one. What am I missing here?

I'm going to delete the descriptions for both mods until I understand exactly what I don't understand, haha.

EDIT (after reading your edit): Oh! So it's basically widening the range of difficulty while still spawning creatures based on the player's level? I'm over here assuming it's like a place-centric overhaul and doesn't do any scaling to the player's level. If it's actually similar to the vanilla game in that the challenge is always the same as you level up, except it happens to spawn tougher/weaker encounters compared to what you'd face in vanilla, I may actually want to use it in my current game! I'm probably just an idiot, and taking various things I know about an FCOM setup with MMM and OOO and everything combined and applying it to MMM alone. No wonder I couldn't get to an agreement/understanding with Psymon when I am TOTALLY WRONG, haha.

I guess that line may have come from the description for MMM for OOO, I've already brought it up in the development forum as I don't have edit rights to MMM on TESNexus. I am sure it'll get adjusted at some point to avoid future confusion. To re-state what I said above; what MMM does do is introduce you to creatures earlier than you meet them in Vanilla and allow you to keep meeting them for many more levels afterwards than you would in Vanilla. This is one way it alters balance, but it's not fundamentally changing the level scaling itself, just tweaking the details.

Vac

Man, I wish I had read a bit more about it than just checking the description real quick and finding something that confirmed what I thought, would have saved a little bit of Psymon's time at least! But I've become a pro at wasting his time, haha.

I'm almost definitely applying what OOO (I think) does to MMM, but yeah that part of the description should probably be better-worded, reading it know I can see how it could mean multiple things.

So probably everything I said on the first page on this thread about WAC vs. MMM can be ignored, except I suppose by altering when vanilla creatures spawn MMM is more extensive in its reach, while WAC is more self-contained but simultaneously can have a large effect on balance because it doesn't spawn creatures based on the player's level. In my mind neither of them are really overhauls now, more like expansions, but I understand the specific meaning on the forum.

Am I wrong about WAC's lack of proper documentation, though? Is there some extensive document somewhere that I don't know about?

Opening the files in TES4Edit is by far the most reliable form of documentation it's possible to get for any mod and is my preferred method to understand what a mod is and does except for script-heavy mods. Beyond that, no, WAC is poorly documented and a significant chunk of the information in existence is simply antiquated and therefore inaccurate (like "there are smurfs in WAC!").

Vac

I suppose it's about time I start learning enough so I can open things in TES4Edit and have some idea what I'm looking at, heh. Or the Construction Set for that matter. I'm all broad knowledge about various things but nothing deeply.

I'm actually pretty psyched to try out MMM now, I had been thinking it wouldn't really fit in with my whole ~vanilla experience~ scheme, but it seems like a natural enough evolution. WAC hasn't been much more than a few extra creatures I run into now and then, but I've only installed the bare minimum, I'll have to try to figure out what the Overspawn ESP does exactly, plus TCOS when I get around to installing items. I guess I need to start learning things quickly so I can use TES4Edit, or hope the short descriptions don't leave anything out, since now I'm kind of scared of enabling a WAC mod without being sure of exactly what it does, ha.

Anyway, I'll fix the descriptions for WAC and MMM so they're not horribly wrong in any way. Thanks for helping to clarify all this for me. Now I can look forward to trying out MMM, deciding it has some minor issue that clashes too much with my ~vanilla experience~ lameness, then uninstalling it, before deciding my problem with it was stupid and insignificant, then reinstalling it. Or something.

Yeah see I didn't think MMM did all that - it sounded more like what happens when in some FCOM type combination.

Thanks vac for clearing that up.

Palidoo-
Overhauls are not evil. They are fun. Get over it. Vanilla scaling is boring. Anyway that is where it starts: a mod like MMM ... next thing you know ...

The overspawn mixes the spawns from vanilla and WAC more. I think without it you are getting WAC spawns from only WAC spawn points and then vanilla from the normal spawn points. Using overspawn mixes content at all spawn points. Of course this may not be exact. I'm certain Vacuity would know better having a better brain than I for such things. And as for documentation - it just got to beta status.

Now I just gave a few test runs to a OWC ND + WAC combination. Holy smokes the creatures from OWC ND are tough! I mean really tough. Starting to have doubts maybe I just drew some bad randoms, but wow.

Excellent idea to integrate the different creature mods. I think you left one off the list - Little Barons Undead mod which adds ghouls and mummies. Also, I don't like the smurfs/greenies from WAC and some of the other beasts like chimps, lions, rhinos seemed out of place.

Thanks garx and brad ford, I just added 20 Horror Creatures and Little Baron Ghouls and Mummies to the list. It's a creepy-theme update, I guess. But seriously, what's going on with that legged shark? It's just... A shark, with skeleton legs. So wrong.

How does Zombie Diversity integrate with an FCOM/MMM install? I want to use them but I'm worried it will mess up zombie stats.

I can't say for sure because I haven't done FCOM/MMM (yet). But as usual I'm thinking the best thing is just to use Bash for the conflicting leveled lists between the two mods, but I have no idea if they'll end up working together. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

Although I have enjoyed many great aspects of WAC latest version, I can't see how it could be considered as an addition to building a vanilla type game without it being an "Overhaul". Overhaul does not necessarily mean the stats but also the look and feel, and IMHO many of the WAC creatures do not fit into the world. If there was a way to use WAC without the creatures addon I would include it in most games as everythig else is "just plain neat". That is the great thing about Frans, it is so modular for an overhaul.

Anyway, nice list palidoo and everyone, grabbing most things now.

I think there is a conflict with WAC Overspawn when used with MMM. I had been told to leave Overspawn off if you use both WAC and MMM.

What is OWC ND?

Also, not having level scaling gets boring when you're near capped levels. Everything just becomes a "swat the fly away" game. I personally would like a mix of the two, which is why I use both WAC and MMM. So far it's a good combo.

OWC ND = Oblivion War Cry New Dimension

I'm looking forward to trying MMM with WAC already installed (but no Overspawn), I just wish I knew earlier it expanded on the vanilla level scaling and didn't overhaul it, maybe I would have installed it first rather than WAC, which is cool but lacks all the appealing features MMM has.

And there you go. I'd suggest we don't send this thread off on a tangent about level scaling.Yep, but nothing *too* awful, it's just the various lists they both affect conflict in ways that Bash won't fix properly, so in some cases you'll get mostly stuff from WAC+the vanilla stuff in the WAC lists, in some cases you'll get MMM's re-made lists and in some cases you'll get a decent mix of the two. To sort it out properly, you need a proper patch or be comfortable editing the two overhauls directly which is what I did.

Vac

Oh yeah, didn't mean to go OT there, but some people do like scaling, to a slightly higher degree in my case (level 48 toon).

To Overspawn.esp reply, that is if you turn Overspawn on? There isn't a patch for that though yet is there? I'd do it myself, but I'm not that savvy with merging and patching, yet.

Not that many; most people on these boards assume that everyone wants some kind of level-scaling overhaul.

And as far as I know, no there's no publicly available MMM/WAC patch, no.

Vac

I'd actually love to have one if I could only let go of my main toon.

That's too bad about the patch, but you didn't answer the first question: was the mixing/non mixing of MMM/WAC/Vanilla comment with Overspawn turned on or off?

Sorry my bad. The problems with leveled lists come from the Overspawn plugin, yes.

Vac

Zombie Diversity should be included already in the latest version of MMM. At least that's what I've been told.

whew, okay. had me a bit worried there at first that I needed to do something extra even with Overspawn off. :sweat:

There are other conflicts between WAC and MMM as well (such as with the TCOS plugin) that Bash didn't resolve to my satisfaction. Realistically, you need a custom-built patch (or patches) to properly deal with it all to full satisfaction, or hack the plugins themselves directly.

Vac

"Zombie Diversity" and "Ghouls and Mummies" look like they're also in Creature Diversity, so they should have asterisks too.

I actually spent a few minutes trying to figure out if Zombie Diversity is included, and it appears that the Orc and Argonian zombies included in the Creature Diversity mod are actually from elsewhere, so I left it without an asterisk. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But you're right about Ghouls and Mummies, I didn't check before I added it. Thanks.

Also


Indeed, which is why I ended up debating back and forth with Psymon about it in message, haha.

I think you are technically wrong. Creature Diversity doesn't directly pull from Zombie diversity, but I think it takes the same from the same resources mods that it does.

Yup, confirmed:

Creature Diversity credits:
Hel Borne for Argonian & Orc Zombies
Dominick Cryomonde for Argonian skeleton & Khajiit skeleton
Zenith92 for Dark Elf & High Elf Zombies

Zombie Diversity credits:
To Hel Borne for the "Argonian and Orc Zombie Resources" package. It can be found here ... http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=23298
To Zenith92 for the "Diverse Zombies" package. It can be found here ... http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19017

The Zenith92 links are the same, the Hel Borne one for Zombie diversity doesn't exist (removed?), but is undoubtedly the resources made by Hel Bourne used in the mod that Creature Diversity linked to.

Okay, thanks. I guess I didn't read the credits for Zombie Diversity, because when I saw the Creature Diversity credits I thought it was a different resource from what was used in Zombie Diversity. Thanks for doing the work I should have done! Asterisk engine engaged!