So I've had these thoughts bottled in me for a while now. Be warned: SPOILERS FOR FALLOUT, FALLOUT 2, FALLOUT 3 and NEW VEGAS will follow.

I've played through Fallout 1-3 and New Vegas recently on Steam and had a blast. I loved Oblivion and Skyrim, so I figured I'd love Fallout 3, but Fallout 1 and 2 surprised me with how much I enjoyed them. Even as dated as they are, I loved the freedom you had to whatever you wanted. Hell, I loved the freedom I had that I could blow Matt's brains out (a guy who wants the Intelligent Deathclaws to be exterminated out of fear or prejudice, whatever) in an attempt to protect the intelligent deathclaws.

Except, apparently... save a few intelligent deathclaws.

This left me confused after I finished Fallout 2, as many users recommended using Killap's Fallout 2 Resoration Mod on reviews and guides I'd read before playing to get the most out of the game. I loved Fallout 2, from making friends with nearly everyone, becoming Idolized nearly everywhere, slaughtering entire Mob Families in New Reno, you know, that sort of thing. Basically every ending for Fallout 2 in my first playthrough was satisfying and fitting; the mob family I sided with took over New Reno, my village thrived, the Jet addiction was basically eliminated, and apparently the Deathclaws I saved expanded and lived happily ever after.

Except they didn't. There were supposed to be exterminated, apparently.

After researching various Fallout 2 topics after finishing the game, I quickly found out that the ending I got was basically invalid... just because Chris Avellone said so. No reason, no justification, just because he said so. This quickly made me angry. If he had given a logical reason for it; say, they eventually became sterile due to the FEV virus exposure, or they were reduced to hostile animals like the rest of the deathclaws for a similar reason, I would accept it.

What makes it even more confusing is that whether or not the intelligent deathclaws survived as a species is disputed between John Deilly and Chris Avellone in the Fallout Bible. Here are their statements (taken from Nukapedia):

1. The Fallout Bible is mixed as to whether Xarn and Goris could reproduce and save the intelligent deathclaw breed. In a March 11, 2002 update, John Deiley (the creator and designer of much of the talking deathclaw content) wrote: In any case, there is a chance that two intelligent deathclaws survived to continue on the species. I realize that they are both males, but that is fine. When they were engineered by the Enclave, the intelligence gene was made male specific and dominant. What this means is: Any intelligent male that mated with a non-intelligent female would (most likely) produce intelligent offspring.
2. However, in a later (July 10, 2002) update of the Fallout Bible, Chirs Avellone denied that the intelligent deathclaws lived, writing: BTW, the talking deathclaws were destroyed at the end of Fallout 2. Xarn and Goris did not go on to create a new species. They are gone. Kaput. Goodbye. In fact, any mutant animal that talks can safely be assumed to have died at the end at the exact minute that Fallout 2 was over.
   Any last words, talking animals?
   I thought not. These two possible fates of the intelligent Deathclaws are not considered canon anymore, making it further unclear as to whether the race is still around or not.

See the difference here? One who actually put work into this part of the game offered his thoughts on what happened, justified with logic and reason. The other? Basically a flip off to anyone who liked the intelligent deathclaws. What makes it even more confusing is that the Fallotu Bible itself is no longer canon; which means we have no idea what really happened. And because Chris Avellone is still working on Fallout 4 (correct me if I'm wrong) logic and reason have no bearing on the fate of intelligent deathclaws. If he doesn't like them, for whatever reason, then he won't let the development team return to intelligent deathclaws.

So after finding this out, I shrugged my shoulders as I had yet to play Fallout 3 and New Vegas; I thought, maybe they have some clue as to what happened there. I played through these two games thoroughly, and enjoyed them immensely, but I was disappointed to find nothing about the intelligent deathclaws whatsoever. It kinda made sense in Fallout 3 since DC is quite a distance from California. It was worse in New Vegas as they have several references to Fallout 2, such as Marcus' appearance, the New Reno's ending was mentioned, and the Hub in Fallout 1 was apparently not destroyed by invading mutants (by the way, this was a similar bug in Fallout 1, where the "good" ending is impossible to get). I hoped that the deathclaws roaming the quarry junction might hold some clue as to the intelligent deathclaw's fate... somewhere. But I found nothing.

So my final question is this; what's bethesda's and the team working on Fallout 4 stance on all this? Simply forgetting about it is probably the worst thing they could do, as it would leave me and everyone who liked the intelligent deathclaws with no closure. I liked the intelligent deathclaws because: they were more kind and docile than most humans I meet in the game, they could form an entirely new society if allowed to live; and I like sentient non-humans as a general rule. And the restoration mod makes the endings make sense and become satisfying.

Has bethesda made any statements about the Fallout 2 "canon" that I'm not aware of? I've been searching for these answers for a while now, but found none. I really hope they reference the intelligent deathclaws in some way in Fallout 4 - even a mention of a sighting of an Albino deathclaw (aka Goris or one of his descendants) would make me very happy and bring closure to this issue.

Sorry if I've been rambling, but for one jerk like Avellone to take my unique and satisfying experience of Fallout 2 and sour it for no reason leaves me bitter about it. I really hope he gets fired or replaced someday; I don't even know what happened to John Deilly - the guy who deserves the real credit for the intelligent deathclaws. (sigh)

1. The Fallout bible is canon, in parts. Chris Avellone said the Fallout Bible is no longer canon so that Bethesda wouldn't feel the need to follow it. Bethesda however, have said they did use it when making Fallout 3. So it is canon, all the parts of it in the game at least.
2. Chris A left Obsidian awhile back.
3. Chris A was NEVER on the Fallout 4 team, as Fallout 4 is being made by Bethesda, a company he has never worked at.
4. Bethesda has said nothing in regards to what is canon from Fallout 2.
5. Talking deathclaws are most likely still out, as Tim Cain, Chris A, and Chris Taylor, have all spoken out against talking animals in general, saying they aren't Fallout like. They actually removed a small settlement of talking animals from Fallout 1, just for that reason.

Thanks for those clarifications. Glad to see Avellone's not part of the Fallout 4 team, at least. In regards to your first point about parts being canon, can you provide any sources for that? I'd be interested to hear what Bethesda did say they used from the Fallout Bible.

On point 4 though, don't they reference several events from Fallout 2 in New Vegas being canon? Marcus definitely left California to settle in Jacobstown. Or is that Obsidian rather than Bethesda? And Obsidian is not involved in Fallout 4?

On point 5, where have Tim Cain and Chris Taylor talked about not using talking animals? I'd like to read about that too. Granted, talking animals in Fallout 3 and New Vegas would be rather out of place now that I think of it. However, this doesn't answer what their stance is on what really happened in Fallout 2 - that's my real problem. I don't really care too much if talking deathclaws don't appear again in their future games, given the way they've changed the game type.

-http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Canon#Secondary_sources

Links are prodived as to Todd and Emil saying they used it when making Fallout 3, and to where Bible material has made it into the games.

-The only mention of whats canon from Fallout 2 is in NV, and Bethesda didn't make it. Although Bethesda did okay everything Obsidian did, so its thier offical stance, it just wasn't Bethesda themselves who stated it. And no, Obsidian is not involved with Fallout 4.

-http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Burrows

The canon ending for what happened in Fallout 2 is that they all got killed.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Fallout_2_cut_content#Endfilms

A good ending for the deathclaws of Vault 13, where the Pack expands peacefully into the surrounding territory. According to John Deiley, who designed Vault 13, this was scrapped because the Enclave plot required the slaughter of the deathclaws. Killap's unofficial patch gets around this by a simple solution: killing Dr. Schreber in Navarro saves the deathclaws if the player can kill him before the attack (two weeks after first entering V13).

Okay, thanks for the links. Though to be honest, none of that is really new information.

I know the canon ending is that the deathclaws get killed. What I want to know is if they still exist or not. Doesn't matter whether Bethesda plans to actually use them in gameplay or not (I actually agree that they shouldn't be used). In Vanilla or not, Goris and Xarn are two deathclaws that will most likely survive (so long as you're not an omnicidal character). And if the Fallout Bible is canon, as you say, there is still the internal conflict as to whether Goris and Xarn continued the species.

Have you played Fallout 2? I thank you for your input, AwesomePossum, put you've only stated facts so far.

That is the only thing that can be stated really.

Since the Fallout Bible is canon... somewhat... Chris's comment that they are all dead, being made after the comment by John Deiley, saying that two might survive, is the canon answer until otherwise changed by Bethesda or Obsidian.

Newest sources are always the most canon, so assume ALL of them to be dead and gone becuase Chris A said they are.

So have you played Fallout 2 or not?

Thanks for making a statement that will most likely prevent me from enjoying Fallout 2 again.

Yes, I have. Several times.

Sorry to bum you out man.

For more intelligent Deathclaws, you can check Fallout Tactics. Just keep in mind that they do not have the slightest relationship with deathclaws of the Vault 13. includ, they're not even the same species (they are mamals, not lizards)

I dont think they will appears again. Since restoration project is not official, death is the only ending for this guys.

Or maybe bethesda/obisidian change this ending, just like Obsidian made with the Followers of the Apocalypse ending from Fallout 1.