Interesting situation I'm trying to debug... : IV

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:48 am

Given the complexity of my load order I'm not expecting an easy answer here, but I'll admit I'm a bit curious about a situation I've found and was hoping to get some debugging suggestions.

My game is usually pretty solid and stable, in spite of the number of mods I'm running. Tonight I decided to add Dungeons of Ivellon to my load order, given that I've heard a lot of good things about it. Installation went fine, cleaned the mod, installed a patch for UL, loaded up Oblivion, started new test game, saved, played around for a bit. All of this is my normal process as I slowly and deliberately build my load order.

So, anyway, I discovered that if I quit Oblivion and tried to load a save, whether made before or after installing Ivellon, the game CTDs. If I deactivate Ivellon, the same saves load just fine - and not just older saves, but even the test saves made while Ivellon was active.

Starting a new game with Ivellon works fine - game is stable. It's only after saving, exiting, and trying to reload that I get the CTD.

Other than UL Cheydinhal Falls, for which I have the patch, there are no significant conflicts reported between Ivellon.esp and other mods I'm running. I've tried various things to debug the situation but so far I'm coming up blank. I am running the OOO Harvest Containers Filter patch for mods, which supports Ivellon, and as a test to verify there wasn't something going on there I tried building my patch without Ivellon installed, so the filter wouldn't incorporate Ivellon's content. No difference in behavior.

Anyway, typically at this point I might just give up on a mod although given what I've heard about Ivellon I am still hoping to give it a try.

Here's my load order:

Spoiler

= Check ModsThis is a report on your currently active/merged mods.=== Active Mod Files:* 00  Oblivion.esm* 01  Jog_X_Mod.esm* 02  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 1.0]* 03  Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm  [Version 4.5bSI]* 04  Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm  [Version 4.5bSI]* 05  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.73]* 06  TamRes.esm* 07  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm  [Version 1.34]* 08  Mart's Monster Mod.esm  [Version 3.7b3p3]* 09  TamrielTravellers.esm  [Version 1.39c]* 0A  FCOM_Convergence.esm  [Version 0.9.9MB3]* 0B  Armamentarium.esm  [Version 1.35]* 0C  Artifacts.esm  [Version 1.1]* 0D  Kvatch Rebuilt.esm* 0E  Better Cities Resources.esm  [Version 4.8.4]* 0F  CM Partners.esm* 10  CustomSpellIcons.esm* 11  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.3.3]* 12  DLCShiveringIsles.esp* 13  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.4.0]* 14  SM Plugin Refurbish - SI.esp  [Version 1.30]* ++  Shivering OOO.esp* 15  Better Cities .esp* 16  TamRes.esp* 17  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp* 18  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp* 19  Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp* 1A  Francesco's Optional Leveled Quests-SI only.esp* 1B  Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp* ++  Francesco's Dark Seducer Weapons Patch.esp* ++  FCOM_Francescos.esp  [Version 0.9.9]* ++  FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp  [Version 0.9.9]* 1C  FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp  [Version 0.9.9]* 1D  Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp* 1E  All Natural.esp  [Version 1.1]* 1F  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 1.0]* 20  Immersive Interiors.esp  [Version 0.7]* 21  Immersive Interiors - Lights Addon.esp  [Version 0.7]* ++  Visually Realistic Lava.esp* ++  Symphony of Violence.esp* 22  MIS.esp* 23  MIS New Sounds Optional Part.esp* 24  Atmospheric Oblivion.esp* 25  Distant Chapel Bells.esp* 26  All Natural - Real Lights.esp  [Version 1.1]* 27  WindowLightingSystem.esp* 28  Book Jackets Oblivion.esp* ++  Cobl Bookjackets.esp* ++  Item interchange - Extraction.esp  [Version 0.78]* 29  PTFallingStars.esp* 2A  RAEVWD New Sheoth.esp  [Version 1.6.1]* 2B  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 5.1]* 2C  Display Stats.esp  [Version 1.3.1]* 2D  DropLitTorchOBSE.esp  [Version 2.4]* 2E  FormID Finder4.esp* 2F  Quest Log Manager.esp  [Version 1.3.2]* 30  Streamline 3.1.esp* 31  Map Marker Overhaul.esp  [Version 3.8]* 32  Map Marker Overhaul - SI additions.esp  [Version 3.5]* 33  Enhanced Hotkeys.esp  [Version 2.1.1]* 34  DLCHorseArmor.esp* 35  DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.6]* ++  Mart's Monster Mod - DLCHorseArmor+Slofs .esp  [Version 0.91]* 36  SM Plugin Refurbish - HorseArmor.esp  [Version 1.11]* 37  DLCOrrery.esp* 38  DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.4]* 39  SM Plugin Refurbish - Orrery.esp  [Version 1.11]* 3A  DLCVileLair.esp* 3B  DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.6]* ++  SM Plugin Refurbish - VileLair.esp  [Version 1.21]* **  Lair_mobs.esp* 3C  DLCMehrunesRazor.esp* 3D  DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.5]* **  Mehrunes_mobs.esp* 3E  SM Plugin Refurbish - MehrunesRazor.esp  [Version 1.30]* 3F  DLCSpellTomes.esp* ++  DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.1]* **  Book Jackets DLC.esp* **  GrimbotsSpellTomes.esp* ++  MaleBodyReplacerV4.esp* **  Armamentium female.esp* 40  DLCThievesDen.esp* 41  DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.7]* 42  SM Plugin Refurbish - ThievesDen.esp  [Version 1.30]* **  Thievesden_mobs.esp* ++  Francesco's No Reduced Backwards Running.esp* 43  Cobl Glue.esp  [Version 1.73]* 44  Cobl Si.esp  [Version 1.63]* 45  Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp* 46  FCOM_BobsArmory.esp  [Version 0.9.9]* 47  Oblivion WarCry EV.esp  [Version 1.09]* 48  FCOM_WarCry.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB5]* 49  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp  [Version 1.34]* ++  OOO-Water_Weeds.esp  [Version 1.33]* 4A  Alluring Potion Bottles v3.esp* 4B  Alluring Wine Bottles.esp* **  OMOBS.esp  [Version 1.0]* **  OMOBS_SI.esp  [Version 1.0]* 4C  OMOBS Optional Combat Settings.esp  [Version 1.0]* ++  ArmamentariumLLVendors.esp  [Version 1.35]* 4D  ArmamentariumArtifacts.esp  [Version 1.35]* 4E  OOO 1.32-Cobl.esp  [Version 1.72]* 4F  Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]* 50  FCOM_Convergence.esp  [Version 0.9.9Mb3]* ++  FCOM_EntropicOrderRebalance.esp  [Version 0.9.9beta2]* 51  FCOM_RealSwords.esp  [Version 0.9.9]* 52  Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]* 53  Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]* 54  Mart's Monster Mod - Dungeons of MMM.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]* 55  Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]* 56  Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]* 57  Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3f]* ++  Mart's Monster Mod - Slof Horses Complete.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]* 58  TamrielTravellers4OOO.esp  [Version 1.39c]* ++  TamrielTravellersItemsnpc.esp  [Version 1.39c]* 59  TamrielTravellersItemsCobl.esp  [Version 1.39c]* 5A  ShiveringIsleTravellers.esp  [Version 1.39c]* ++  ShiveringIsleTravellersFriendlyFactions4MMM.esp  [Version 1.39c]* ++  FCOM_TamrielTravelers.esp  [Version 0.9.9]* ++  FCOM_DiverseGuardUnity.esp  [Version 0.9.9]* ++  FCOM_BobsGuardUnity.esp  [Version 0.9.9]* ++  Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]* ++  ArmamentariumLL4OOO.esp  [Version 2.01]* ++  ArmamentariumLLMagicOOO.esp  [Version 1.35]* **  Fransfemale.esp* ++  MMM-Cobl.esp  [Version 1.73]* **  EVE_StockEquipmentReplacer4FCOM.esp* 5B  Artifacts.esp  [Version 1.1]* **  ArtifactsFemaleArmor.esp* ++  Artifacts - ArmaCompleteAddon.esp  [Version 1.0]* 5C  Kvatch Rebuilt.esp* ++  Kvatch Rebuilt - OOO Compatibility.esp* 5D  Kvatch Rebuilt - Leveled Guards - FCOM.esp* 5E  Kvatch Rebuilt Weather Patch.esp* 5F  LetThePeopleDrink.esp  [Version 2.5]* 60  The Imperial Water - BETTER CITIES.esp* 61  thievery.esp* 62  thievery - EE patch.esp  [Version 4.2]* 63  VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp* 64  DLCFrostcrag.esp* 65  SM Plugin Refurbish - FrostCrag.esp  [Version 1.2]* 66  Knights.esp* **  Knights - Book Jackets.esp* 67  Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.1]* **  EVE_KnightsoftheNine.esp* ++  SM Plugin Refurbish - Knights.esp  [Version 1.06]* 68  The Lost Spires.esp* 69  GuardsofCyrodiilRedux.esp  [Version 1.10]* 6A  Blood&Mud.esp* 6B  Blood&Mud - EE patch.esp  [Version 4.2]* 6C  Lost Paladins of the Divines.esp* 6D  AFK_Weye.esp  [Version 2.2.COBL]* 6E  MannimarcoRevisited.esp* 6F  MannimarcoRevisitedOOO.esp  [Version 0.1]* 70  FCOM_Blood&Mud.esp  [Version 0.9.9]* ++  FCOM_Knights.esp  [Version 0.9.9Mb3]* 71  ElsweyrAnequina.esp* ++  ElsweyrAnequina - Races HGEC-Robert.esp  [Version 1.2]* 72  road+bridges.esp  [Version 4.5.9]* 73  Feldscar.esp  [Version 1.0.5]* 74  Vergayun.esp  [Version 1.0.6]* 75  Faregyl.esp  [Version 1.0.10]* 76  Faregyl+Anequina Patch.esp* 77  Molapi.esp  [Version 1.0.1]* 78  HeartOftheDead.esp  [Version 6.5]* 79  xuldarkforest.esp  [Version 1.0.5]* 7A  LostSpires-DarkForest patch.esp* 7B  xulStendarrValley.esp  [Version 1.2.2]* 7C  xulTheHeath.esp* 7D  MMMMWL-TheHeath patch.esp* 7E  XulEntiusGorge.esp* 7F  xulFallenleafEverglade.esp  [Version 1.3.1]* 80  LostSpires-Everglade patch.esp  [Version 1.2]* 81  Anequina-Fallenleaf-Patch.esp* 82  xulColovianHighlands_EV.esp  [Version 1.2.1]* 83  xulChorrolHinterland.esp  [Version 1.2.2]* 84  xulBeachesOfCyrodiilLostCoast.esp  [Version 1.6.4]* 85  xulBravilBarrowfields.esp  [Version 1.3.2]* 86  xulLushWoodlands.esp  [Version 1.3.1]* 87  xulAncientYews.esp  [Version 1.4.3]* 88  xulAncientRedwoods.esp  [Version 1.6]* 89  xulCloudtopMountains.esp  [Version 1.0.3]* 8A  xulArriusCreek.esp  [Version 1.1.3]* 8B  xulPatch_AY_AC.esp  [Version 1.1]* 8C  HeartoftheDead-ArriusCreek patch.esp* 8D  xulRollingHills_EV.esp  [Version 1.3.3]* 8E  MMMMWL-RollingHills patch.esp* 8F  xulPantherRiver.esp* 90  Blood&Mud-PantherRiver patch.esp* 91  xulRiverEthe.esp  [Version 1.0.2]* 92  xulBrenaRiverRavine.esp  [Version 1.1]* 93  xulImperialIsle.esp  [Version 1.6.6]* 94  xulBlackwoodForest.esp  [Version 1.1.0]* 95  xulCheydinhalFalls.esp  [Version 1.0.1]* 96  Blood&Mud-CheydinhalFalls patch.esp* 97  KvatchRebuilt-CheydinhalFalls patch.esp* 98  xulAspenWood.esp  [Version 1.0.2]* 99  xulSkingradOutskirts.esp  [Version 1.0.1]* 9A  xulSnowdale.esp  [Version 1.0.2]* 9B  Feldscar+Snowdale Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]* 9C  FrostcragReborn-Snowdale patch.esp* 9D  OOO-Snowdale Patch.esp* 9E  xulCliffsOfAnvil.esp* 9F  OOOCliffsofAnvilPatch.esp  [Version 1.0]* A0  NRB4+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp  [Version 3.0.1]* A1  West Roads.esp* A2  Fort Akatosh Redux.esp* A3  FortAkatoshRedux-NewRoads&Bridges patch.esp* A4  Harvest [Flora].esp  [Version 3.0.1]* ++  Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp  [Version 3.0.1]* ++  Harvest [Flora] - DLCVileLair.esp  [Version 3.0.1]* A5  Harvest [Flora] - DLCFrostcrag.esp  [Version 3.0.1]* A6  HUD Status Bars.esp  [Version 2.0.1]* A7  Dungeon Actors Have Torches 1.6 DT.esp* ++  Enhanced Vegetation [100%].esp* ++  Short Grass V3.esp* A8  Soulgem Magic.esp  [Version 1.0]* A9  Toggleable Quantity Prompt.esp  [Version 3.2.0]* AA  Quest Award Leveller.esp* ++  Quest Award Leveller - Vile Lair.esp* ++  Quest Award Leveller - Mehrunes Razor.esp* ++  Quest Award Leveller - Knights of the Nine.esp* AB  AgarMoreVariedSpellEffects.esp* **  Cava Obscura - Cyrodiil.esp* **  Cava Obscura - SI.esp* **  Cava Obscura - Filter Patch For Mods.esp* ++  Item interchange - Placement for FCOM.esp  [Version 0.78]* ++  Item interchange - Placement for Frostcrag Reborn.esp  [Version 0.78]* AC  Atmospheric Loading Screens - No Text.esp* AD  EVE_KhajiitFix.esp* AE  1em_Vilja.esp  [Version 3.1]* ++  1em_Vilja_as_Custom_by_Gonzoguns.esp* **  1em_Vilja OOO FCOM Fix.esp* AF  bgBalancingEVCore.esp  [Version 10.52EV-D]* **  TamrielTravellers Cosmetics Cobl or RBP.esp* B0  bgMagicEV.esp  [Version 1.7EV]* ++  bgMagicSpellTomes_for_WryeBash.esp  [Version 1.68EV]* ++  bgMagicItemSigil.esp  [Version 1.68EV]* ++  bgMagicEVStartspells.esp  [Version 1.68EV]* B1  bgMagicBonus.esp  [Version 1.7EV]* ++  bgMagicEVAddEnVar.esp  [Version 1.68EV]* B2  bgMagicPotionNumberSoulGemValue.esp  [Version 1.68UV]* **  bgBalancingEVOptionalNPCDiversity, Vanilla.esp  [Version 10.0EV-D]* ++  bgBalancingEVOptionalFCOMAdditions.esp  [Version 10.]* B3  bgBalancingOptionalNPCDiversityKvatchRebuilt, for Wrye Bash.esp  [Version 9.0EV-D]* B4  bgBalancingEVLAMEAddition.esp  [Version 10.51EV-D]* ++  bgBalancingEVLAMEGlue.esp  [Version 10.0EV-D1.62EV]* **  bgBalancingEVOptionalNPCDiversityLAME.esp  [Version 10.5EV-D]* ++  bgBalancingEVOptionalSeamReducerHighElfFix.esp  [Version 10.0EV-D]* B5  bgIntegrationEV.esp  [Version 0.993]* B6  Better Cities Full - B&M Edition.esp  [Version 4.8.4]* B7  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Barrowfields.esp  [Version 4.7.0]* B8  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp  [Version 4.8.4]* B9  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Cheydinhal Falls.esp  [Version 4.8.1]* BA  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp  [Version 4.8.1]* BB  Better Cities - Thievery.esp  [Version 4.8.0]* BC  Better Cities - VWD of the IC.esp  [Version 4.7.0]* BD  Better Imperial City.esp  [Version 4.8.4]* BE  Better Cities - The Lost Spires.esp  [Version 4.7.0]* BF  Better Cities - COBL.esp  [Version 2.1]* C0  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Imperial Isle.esp  [Version 4.8.1]* **  bgMagicEVShader.esp  [Version 1.7EV]* ++  bgMagicShaderLifeDetect.esp  [Version 1.68]* C1  BubbleFx.esp* **  NRB4 Standard Road Record.esp* ++  OOO Harvest Containers Filter patch for mods.esp  [Version 1.03]* **  All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.esp  [Version 1.1]* C2  Bashed Patch, 0.esp

Suggestions appreciated. Thanks.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:47 am

Try loading an uncleaned version of the mod. Something could have gone wrong.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:15 am

Try loading an uncleaned version of the mod. Something could have gone wrong.

Thanks - although no difference in behavior. Earlier I even tried using an earlier version of Ivellon from the archive (and also left it uncleaned for testing purposes) and had the same behavior.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:27 pm

i have personally had similar problems when loading a lot of resource heavy mods, i have had problems with an otherwise compatible load order due to reasons having little to do with the mods themselves. it seems like there is an internal cutoff point before the sheer number of textures/meshes oblivion has to keep track of causes it to simply choke

many big file heavy mods like TR_Stirk, silgrad tower, blood and mud, duke city, the lost spires as well as dungeons of ivellion required me to trim out other large mods to lighten the load

the results varied quite a bit:

inability to load existing saves

textures/meshes failing to load regardless of archive invalidation settings

entire landscape cells failing to load

menu and UI elements failing to load

oblivion outright crashing as soon as the startup videos ended(presumably connected with the menu issue)

this may not have anything whatsoever to do with your problem, but try removing a different large-scale mod and see if that has any effect on your game.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:56 pm

How many ESM+ESP+BSA files are present in your Data folder?

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:15 pm

How many ESM+ESP+BSA files are present in your Data folder?

The limit occurred to me and I did some counting last night, but don't think it's an issue based on what I've heard previously about the 255 active esp/esm limit and 325-400 limit on total files.

I have 197 active ESM/ESPs and 55 BSAs, or 252 files with ESM/ESP/BSA extensions. I use Wrye Bash's ghost feature to hide an extra 75 esps that are imported in the Bashed Patch.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:20 pm

When you had Ivellon activated, were you importing anything into the Bashed Patch. I've run into problems similar to the one reported here in the past: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=26382

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:03 am

When you had Ivellon activated, were you importing anything into the Bashed Patch. I've run into problems similar to the one reported here in the past: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=26382

Yes, initially, specifically due to the OOO filter patch for mods, although I subsequently uninstalled Ivellon, rebuilt the patch without it my load order, then reinstalled Ivellon without rebuilding the patch and the behavior is the same. Essentially as soon as I check Ivellon.esp in my load order, even without doing the other things I typically do after installing a new mod (rebuild patch, TES4LODgen, etc) it results in the behavior.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:58 am

i have personally had similar problems when loading a lot of resource heavy mods, i have had problems with an otherwise compatible load order due to reasons having little to do with the mods themselves. it seems like there is an internal cutoff point before the sheer number of textures/meshes oblivion has to keep track of causes it to simply choke

many big file heavy mods like TR_Stirk, silgrad tower, blood and mud, duke city, the lost spires as well as dungeons of ivellion required me to trim out other large mods to lighten the load

the results varied quite a bit:

inability to load existing saves

textures/meshes failing to load regardless of archive invalidation settings

entire landscape cells failing to load

menu and UI elements failing to load

oblivion outright crashing as soon as the startup videos ended(presumably connected with the menu issue)

this may not have anything whatsoever to do with your problem, but try removing a different large-scale mod and see if that has any effect on your game.

Fascinating - I think you're on to something here. Disabling Lost Spires, rebuilding the patch, and enabling Ivellon let me open all those saves again (with the normal warning about missing content when loading the save.)

This would suggest there may be some kind of overall resource limit although it's not clear to me why a new game would work, but loading a save won't.

For what it's worth, my Data directory is 26.3 Gbytes in size and has 95,193 total files and 4,260 folders. Lost Spires is an interesting example, given that most resources are in a BSA as opposed to loose files like Ivellon.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:01 pm

OK, so I had an idea after thinking about this for a while and looking at my OBSE log files.

I tried loading up the game with just Oblivion.exe rather than the OBSE launcher - the saves loaded up fine although of course there were complaints about the game having been saved with OBSE and OBSE not being active when being loaded. However, there is no instant CTD like when OBSE is running.

The fact that a new game works fine, but loading a save doesn't, along with the behavior I describe in the above paragraph, suggests to me this may be related to when the OBSE cosave is loaded. I don't know whether there's a resource limit associated with that or not.

Here's a sample of what I'm seeing at the end of my obse.log:

Spoiler

loading from C:\Users\...\My Games\Oblivion\Saves\Save 213 - x - Imperial Prison, Level 1, Playing Time 00.01.43.obse
Reading mod list from co-save
Loading strings
Loading array variables
plugin has data in save file but no handler
plugin has data in save file but no handler
DoLoadGameHook: C:\Users\...\My Games\Oblivion\Saves\Save 213 - x - Imperial Prison, Level 1, Playing Time 00.01.43.ess
loading from C:\Users\...\My Games\Oblivion\Saves\Save 213 - x - Imperial Prison, Level 1, Playing Time 00.01.43.obse

Any idea what the "plugin has data in save file but no handler" message is about?

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:24 pm

The Lost Spires issue is generally solvable by running it through the CS. That is, load the ESP up in the CS, then immediately save it. A lot of people who have done that and nothing else find it prevents LS from causing issues.

I'd go the extra step of running it through a cleaning afterward to get rid of the dirty edits and fix the deleted references. Then see if your game will fire back up on one of those old saves.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:41 am

I can't be certain at this point, but I believe I ran into the same problem about a month back. Spent four or five days trying to sort it out before giving up and starting a new game.

I'm glad to see someone more skilled and methodical than myself on the trail of this particular bug. Go get-em, Strormgarde. :flamethrower:

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:43 am

The Lost Spires issue is generally solvable by running it through the CS. That is, load the ESP up in the CS, then immediately save it. A lot of people who have done that and nothing else find it prevents LS from causing issues.

I'd go the extra step of running it through a cleaning afterward to get rid of the dirty edits and fix the deleted references. Then see if your game will fire back up on one of those old saves.

Arthmoor - thanks I can try that, although it's probably worth mentioning I've been running Lost Spires for months without issue. It was only when I tried adding Ivellon to the mix recently that I noticed the CTD issue. luna_panshiel suggested turning off another big resource mod such as Lost Spires - which does appear to result in a difference in behavior, but it also could be the case disabling other "big" mods other than Lost Spires might result in similar behavior. It's like there is some other sort of resource limit at play, although from all appearances memory usage and everything else is just fine on my end. And, as I mentioned, when using OBSE the behavior is different when not.

It does seem to be when the OBSE co-save is loaded.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:08 am

Tried what Arthmoor suggested with respect to The Lost Spires.esp and it didn't make a difference in behavior. I don't think Lost Spires is really at fault here - it seems to be something related to what's happening when OBSE tries to load that cosave when everything is active.

I think the next thing I'll try is disabling OBSE plugins one by one to see if there is any difference in behavior.

I have a stable game if I don't put Ivellon.esp into the mix...but the testing so far has me doubting that Ivellon is actually the underlying culprit.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:06 pm

No dice with respect to disabling my OBSE plugins. I guess Ivellon is going to wait until a future build.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:14 pm

Now may be as good a time as any for you to try out mTES4, the game-cloning and easy-switching app. I now have three completely different mod setups and can switch between at will! One FCOM, Oblivion XP with lots of quest mods for fairly easy progression and exploration, another Tejon and Phitt based for slow-churning difficult edge-of-the-seat play, and another entirely devoted to Giskaard's mods. Pretty cool.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:43 pm

Now may be as good a time as any for you to try out mTES4, the game-cloning and easy-switching app. I now have three completely different mod setups and can switch between at will! One FCOM, Oblivion XP with lots of quest mods for fairly easy progression and exploration, another Tejon and Phitt based for slow-churning difficult edge-of-the-seat play, and another entirely devoted to Giskaard's mods. Pretty cool.

Thanks, I knew there was something like that utility around, just couldn't remember the name or details.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:08 pm

Have you tried popping Ivellon into the CS and saving it back? Also, have you patched it to it's latest version (1.8?)

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:23 pm

Have you tried popping Ivellon into the CS and saving it back? Also, have you patched it to it's latest version (1.8?)

Yes, I am using version 1.8 of Ivellon, although I also tried earlier versions as an experiment and had the same problem. I hadn't tried resaving Ivellon.esp specifically but based on your suggestion I tried it and there's no difference in behavior.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:21 am

Yes, I am using version 1.8 of Ivellon, although I also tried earlier versions as an experiment and had the same problem. I hadn't tried resaving Ivellon.esp specifically but based on your suggestion I tried it and there's no difference in behavior.

About to try Ivellon for the first time aswell on my WAC-install, so going through threads for info on issues etc. Obviously I don't have the same issue you do, and I sadly can't do anything to help, but I did notice something rather weird when following the advice Arthmoor just gave you now. I cleaned and undeleted files in the Ivellon.esp (1.8) and it was still 852kb. I then loaded it into the editor and saved without touching anything. The file was now 850kb.

This is something I hadn't tried before on any mod, but did just now with Ivellon and Lost Spires, and seem to have the same effect on both of them. Is this something recommended to use with a number of mods? I don't know the CS well so I have no idea what it could possibly change.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:36 pm

The undelete process can make the file bigger since it's restoring a lot of the data fields that are removed. This is s good thing though, because it's that missing data that causes issues later on.

The CS is quirky and will often save the same file in different sizes on the same run. I'd pay no attention to it. Also, anytime you save in the CS it's a good idea to run the dirty records check again. Sometimes the CS contaminates records just by the act of saving the file without ever touching a thing.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:22 am

The undelete process can make the file bigger since it's restoring a lot of the data fields that are removed. This is s good thing though, because it's that missing data that causes issues later on.

The CS is quirky and will often save the same file in different sizes on the same run. I'd pay no attention to it. Also, anytime you save in the CS it's a good idea to run the dirty records check again. Sometimes the CS contaminates records just by the act of saving the file without ever touching a thing.

Yeah I've noticed the size often gets bigger when there's alot to undelete. Thanks for the clarification on the CS thing, tried it on a couple of other large questmods aswell and in some cases (Lost Spires was one, but also Verona House etc) I did indeed have new dirty edits to clean just from opening and saving the file in the CS.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:12 pm

So, I kind of gave up on Ivellon and went on to other things, but I had this situation recur again when upgrading Faregyl from version 1.0.10 to Faregyl 2.0.

Behavior is the same as what I reported previously - start a new game, and it's rock solid performance no CTDs. However, trying to load a save, even one created directly from that new game, will result in a CTD. OBSE log file suggests this is happening when the cosave is being loaded. Uninstalling Faregyl fixes the problem.

The latest version of Faregyl removes the BSA file in favor of loose files. I did completely uninstall the old BSA. Anyway, without Faregyl installed I have 96,681 files in my Data directory. With it installed, 97,255 files. The loose files alone don't seem to be an issue because if I uncheck Faregyl.esp and Faregyl+Anequina Patch.esp the game loads OK even though I get the expected warnings about missing masters.

The game also loads if everything is active if I launch Oblivion with the core Oblivion.exe executable as opposed to the obse_launcher, although obviously that's not desirable for anything other than testing purposes since I have so many mods which are dependent on OBSE.

The only correlation I can find here is that 1) using OBSE 2) loading the OBSE co-save and 3) over a certain number of files in the Data directory. Other than both pushing me over some arbitrary limit on the size of my Data directory I can see no correlation between the Ivellon and Faregyl incidents, especially since I've been running the older version of Faregyl for months with no issues.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:01 pm

On a hunch, I tried changing bReplaceHeap = 0 in Oblivion Stutter Remover's INI file and guess what - the saves load fine. It's consistent too, with bReplaceHeap = 1 in this scenario I get a CTD every time I load the save, when I have it set to 0 it loads OK.

A while back I found an issue where there was a consistent CTD in one part of the quest in Mannimarco Revisited when ReplaceHeap was set to 1. It only occurs in OBSE 0018+ (not prior versions). That said, the heap replacement in combination with Arthmoor's recommended tweaks have made a huge performance and stability difference for me in general so I'm a bit reluctant just to abandon it. My plan with respect to Mannimarco Revisited was just to turn off the heap replacement for that one battle, but obviously that workaround won't work in this scenario given that the game won't load.

I know scruggs was going to take a look at this at some point to try to figure out why OSR's replace heap function caused this behavior in OBSE 0018+. I think I'll send him a PM about this.

» Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:02 pm

Strange. What heap replacement mode were you using? I've been running OSR for ages with mode 5 and OBSE without trouble. Faregyl 2.0 saw the late stages of its development using OBSE 0019b and never gave me that sort of problem.

It's a wild shot in the dark, but an issue that did come up during testing. Have you tried using the ABomb counter reset on one of the old saves? Near the end of testing, several nasty animation problems took root which were wiped clean when I reset the counter. The strange part is that it fixed it for every character I have, not just the one I reset the counter on. I don't see why it would help in your case, but anything is worth a shot, yes? Reset it even if it's not near 100% because in my case it only showed 37% but the problem is gone now and has stayed gone since.

And for the record, OSR has been behaving nicely with OBSE 0020 as well.

You should also be sure you've updated your Faregyl+Anequina patch as that does need to be updated to properly support Faregyl 2.0.