I talked with Summer and she says it's ok to start another thread on the subject, so long as everyone remains civil, unlike a certain rude person in the last thread. To that end... viola!

As I understand it, there have been no new developments with the disputed contract conditions. Though I would like this thread to be able to stay open in the event new developments surface.

With that said, I would like to discuss what the fact that "V13 will continue production with or without the fallout license" means. If they lose their license that means two things first and foremost. Firstly, it means that V13 will have to be a generic post-apoc game or Interplay will have to develop it into an entirely new post apoc IP that is different enough from Fallout that they can't be sued for it. That means dropping the vaults, any of the iconic references like Nuka-Cola or Mr. Handy, and probably dropping the whole 50's futuristic sci-fi theme. Secondly, it means they can make the game however they damn well please and in their own time. They won't have to adhere to any set of rules laid down by anyone but themselves.

Personally, I'm torn about the issue. I love Fallout. Even though I like Fallout 3, I prefered Fallout as it was in Fallout 1 and 2, not as it is now; bastardized and gutted for pretty much all but the name and setting. A Fallout MMO would be pretty fun providing it wasn't full of bugs. I'm just now escaping from the life svcker known as World of Warcraft, but I'm always willing to try something else. Something that hopefully won't require you spend 40 hours per week playing to see successful end game content. I'm most excited for New Vegas to be released next year, I have high hopes that Obsidian will be allowed to take that "spin off" back to the Fallout roots, but that's a topic for another ongoing discussion. But back to the point, I was excited that a Fallout title was being made by Interplay, though they are a shell of what they once were I had hopes of seeing a true (more or less) Fallout game again. Then I think about how Bethesda would likely want to influence the development of the MMO to fit in with their "revived" Fallout vision and I feel a bit of relief that perhaps, just perhaps if Interplay loses the license then they can do whatever the hell they want to with the game provided they strip it of all Fallout references.

However honestly I don't expect this V13 to see the light of day, as has been said numerous times before by numerous people, launching a successful MMO requires a hell of a lot of capitol and is something a struggling development company simply cannot feasibly do. They have to first pay all the production costs of simply making the game, then they have to buy numerous servers all around the country, hire techs for said servers, hire in game support personnel, and get the game printed and shipped all before getting a single dime of return out of it, barring some magically high number of pre-ordered copies and subscriptions.

So anyway, if anyone has anything they want to say then by all means, go for it. Just please keep it civil so that this topic can remain open.

Interplay should have never started the project. TBH the MMO record from what I can see isnt good, aside from a few smash hits like WoW and Eve, there seem to be a lot folding, or just surviving. These projects have very deep pockets behind them and cost a heck of a lot to make - Interplay doesnt exactly have deep pockets (unless you count the pockets full of debt reciepts).

It was a foolish move, made by a CEO with a less than stellar record (I'd like to say something less civil, but since you asked....).

Yeah, they should have made a spiritual successor to Fallout 1 and 2 instead (something that perhaps InXile's Wasteland 2 might be).

Indeed. I think it's most people's opinion that he is the reason for Interplay's belly up flop in the first place.

Yeah, I'm also not so sure how smart a move this was. The MMO market is saturated, to say the least. And it's not like regular videogames, where most people can be playing a couple of games at a time. An MMO is set up specifically to keep you dedicated to that one game. Back in my EVE Online days I knew a number of people who had multiple accounts on other games, but I doubt most people would be able to afford multiple monthly payments. So basically, any new MMO is going to need to be pulling customers away from games that are already well-established (ie, if the hypothetical V13 would have any chance of success, then it would have to be able to convince a lot of WoW users to switch games.)

As far as just giving up the Fallout IP and making their own new post-apocalyptic setting - I don't think that would necessarily be so horrible. I'm no expert, but they could probably include things like power armor and vault anologues, even. (Because it's not like Fallout was the first to have people in big metal suits or giant underground bunkers, after all.) The trouble there, though, would be coming up with a setting that was unique enough to make it stand out against it's other competitors. (Aren't there already like two other post-apocalyptic MMOs coming out soon? Can't remember the names, off-hand, I don't usually follow MMO news - but one of them is even sharing technology with Interplay, right?)

For people who would just want a Fallout MMO, and wouldn't care if it was made by Interplay, or not - there is, after all, Zenimax Online Studios, which was created in 2007 and still hasn't said what game they're working on - other than that it's an MMO. Now, I'm not saying it would certainly be a Fallout game. But Bethesda has only done work with three IP's (Elder Scrolls, Fallout, and Star Trek.) Cryptic is already working on the Star Trek MMO, so that only leaves two other options.

If I were a betting man, I'd guess that they're more likely developing an Elder Scrolls MMO. But there'd still be a chance that if V13 falls through or Zenimax gets the rights to develop an MMO for Fallout - they might concievably do that as well.


Agreed, I think that would at least have been a safer bet on their part. (I don't know the ins and outs of their licensing agreement, though, or if that would even have been an option.)

True, but the attitude was different back in 2004 when Interplay initially announced that they'd be working on a Fallout MMO. There was still a lot of hype about the genre, and while plenty of people realized that most MMOs don't reach the critical mass to succeed there were still many companies willing to take the chance.

Bethesda purchased the Fallout 3-5 license from Interplay a few weeks after their MMO announcement, and I think Interplay was hoping this would attract further attention to their project. Not only did Bethesda give them a much needed infusion of cash, but a Fallout MMO had to look even better if it came out while people were buzzed about Bethesda's Fallout 3.

However, even before the credit melt down Interplay seemed to have tremendous problems attracting investors. I think more companies were realizing that MMOs weren't worth the risk, and Interplay's shaky ground certainly wasn't going to will people over even though Fallout 3 was selling well.

By spiritual successor, I mean a game in the style of Fallout 1 and 2, but without the Fallout license. Just like Fallout was one to Wasteland.



As smart as any move made by http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Herve_Caen. I only wonder why Chris Taylor is still at Interplay and hasn't left for e.g. Obsidian or InXile yet, like Jason Anderson did.

I think you read too much into this. IPlay probably couldn't attract investors becasue they are IPlay, not because they were attempting to create an MMO. Well established and /or well funded companies create economically viable MMOs, and that's not going to change. Can IPlay pull of V13? Probably not, but Zenimax might be able to do so.

Yeah, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Probably their best move if V13 falls through. I know I'd play it.

Though according to the legal theory of "fair use" as it applies to issues of copyright in the United States, Interplay could produce a Fallout style game, using items such as Mr. Handy and Nuka Cola(aside from a few creative name changes). With that being said, they could easily enough recreate much of the retro-futurism of Fallout with a few exceptions here and there.

No, they could not.

Conceptually, all of the items which appear in Fallout, have at one point either appeared in popular culture or furthermore are based on items, ideas, corporations etc. which currently exist. So long as they do not call the assistant robot Mr. Handy(and perhaps instead call it Mr. Assistant), though there are marked similarities between the two items, you are not in theory violating the copyright which belongs to the previously mentioned product. A grand example of this as it relates to American Corporate history was the creation of the "Big Boy Sandwich" though it is in itself is basically a carbon copy of the McDonald's Big Mac(which was the original), it also has enough differences to distinguish itself from it's competition and thereby does not directly violate McDonald's copyright. So unless, you can give me evidence to the contrary, I can't see any reason why V13 can't proceed as an extremely similar product.

Fair Use refers to non commercial use of material belonging to someone else, particularly for academic purposes. When material is used for commercial purposes, such as for satire or criticism, the volume of that material used is highly limited, and regardless of usage, the material must be cited. Using any name designated by beth would likely be a violation of copyright or trademark, as would the use of any systems, such as SPECIAL.

Personal thoughts: I don't like MMOs, even ones based on franchises I love (see: KotOR).

Business thoughts: The MMO market seems to be a tough nut to crack... there are a few rare successes, and everyone else loses a ton of money. Fallout is a big IP, but Interplay probably doesn't have the resources or talent to make an MMO of AAA quality with the marketing needed to make it a success.

Franchise thoughts: It would be cool to have more Fallout, both in gameplay and story, but an MMO might be done in such a way that it taints the franchise, and ruins the lore. Of course Bethesda could just say it isn't official canon.

Bethesda thoughts: They do NOT want it to happen.

They would have one thing going for it- an MMO set in a post apocalyptic setting would have its own niche. Tons of sword an sorcery MMO's out there along with few cyberpunk and a handfull of social SIMMS but nothing out there like Fallout.

Very meh about it. MMO's are popular until

Boom!

Another MMO comes out and everyone floods to that one and so on.

The only ones still going strong are WoW, Eve, 2nd Life(does that even count).

If a Fallout MMO was released I personally wouldn't bother as it would ruin the feeling of a Post-Apacalyptic Wasteland with 1,000's of people walking around.

The way I see it, Interplay won't last long enough to release one of those DS games they're working on, let alone Project V13. I'm sure no one needs to be reminded exactly who is running the company, Herve & Eric Caen.



Too true, this is the guy who allowed Baldur's Gate III to continue developing (ignorant of the fact that they lost the license a good deal of time before), he also cancelled Project Van Buren when it was six months from release worthy (IIRC) when Fallout? was still a niche title and relied heavily on Black Isle studio's fanbase to gain revenue. The result of that was... FOPOS.

The only good news I expect from Interplay is Chris Taylor leaving for like Ausir stated, InXile or Obsidian.

v13? is this F.O.O.L.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderlands_(video_game) seems interesting. Similar wasteland setting with Vehicle and traditional FPS combat, RPG element and up to 4 player Co-op. Maybe they could do something similar to that if the licence falls through.

I've pretty much lost interest in most MMOs at the moment, I'm really getting over the fantasy setting. I'm not really interested in a dedicated ship combat game but a decent sci-fi or at least more contemporary setting would be nice.

V13 is most likely going to fail, if it's even released at all (which I doubt).

There is simply no way Interplay will attract a customer base that allows them to do more than barely eke out a survival existence (which is sort of ironic, given the post-apocalyptic setting).

There's a big ol' list of MMORPGs out there, and the top nine or ten count 90% of the world's MMORPG players among their subscribers. The other hundred or so noteworthy MMORPGs share the remaining 10% of players. All of these players are usually looking for the next best "perfect" MMORPG, but there's no such thing, so they'll most likely stay put in their game of choice unless a truly astounding game comes along.

hardcoe and sandbox MMORPG players will never have a game that's hardcoe or sandbox again, except for EVE, so when they get tired of EVE, they'll just quit playing MMORPGs entirely. Developers keep churning out casual MMORPGs (just as they keep making casual single-player games), but World of Warcraft (and Lord of the Rings Online, and City of Heroes/Villains) will probably never lose their casual player bases. I personally derive much enjoyment from the fact that developers are punished for releasing casual-centric games in the MMORPG industry.

The only way to survive with a new release is to appeal to niche groups (I, for example, would love a quality, detailed post-apocalyptic sandbox MMORPG that's fairly hardcoe) while keeping your development costs and overhead in check, but developers and investors keep battering themselves against World of Warcraft and breaking even at best.

Yes.

True, Interplay's financial difficulties would trump any concern about the type of game they were making. However I still suspect Interplay announced a Fallout MMO in the hopes that investors would say "ooo, cash cow!" and I wouldn't be surprised if they believed this themselves.


Actually there are at least two post-apocalyptic MMOs in developement right now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_Earth and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthrise_(video_game). Interplay actually has some sort of http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6207361.html?tag=result;title;0 with the developers of Earthrise, Masthead Studios, but it's not entirely clear what their relationship involves. While Masthead Studios will apparently assist with the developement of V13 it seems odd that they'd help with a game that would then compete against their own. As others have pointed out of the forums, Masthead Studios is hardly swimming in cash, so it also doesn't seem like they'd be able to contribute a lot financially.

There's a huge amount of churn out there. Every AAA MMO title has the opportunity to compete, but it really needs to be an AAA title.

I think that, to really succeed, a new title not only needs to be truly AAA, but it also has to be straight-up better than almost anything else out there. Competing on the same level just isn't enough, because churn or no churn, inertia (and two years' worth of accumulated in-game possessions people don't want to let go of) will pull current players back to their home game, even if they try a new title for a few weeks.

It's also extremely difficult to (even just) compete with games like EVE and World of Warcraft. Those games have been continually developed, polished and expanded upon for half a decade at this point, and they were developed by very unique teams whose work you can't replicate by putting up a few wanted ads.

For this reason, I don't think it's even possible to compete with them, unless your game is really something spectacular and has depth, complexity and staying power. Warhammer Online isn't a failure, but it's not really a success either, and I'd definitely call it an AAA title. You could do far worse than Warhammer Online, yet it's not competing with the big names in the industry.

Thus, I think the route to success is to get a small, quirky group of developers together, create something very niche and hand-made, keep your budget and operating costs low, and attract a few thousand regular subscribers that pay the developers' salaries and turn a respectable annual profit. But no one wants to do that. They want the BEST graphics, a gigantic team of developers (and sound and film studios on hand), they want to attract a huge audience (i.e., compete with World of Warcraft), and they want money to explode in their faces like it's spraying out of a rocket-powered fire hose.

And that just doesn't happen.

That first paragraph that I put in bold stood out to me.

To compete with the big names like WoW all an MMO needs is to have been hyped a lot during development to get people interested, have solid lore behind it so people know wtf is going on, relatively easy user controls so people can spend time playing rather than filtering through excessive amounts of menus to find one thing, and not be full of glitches and bugs at release so people can actually enjoy the game. If you combine those elements, virtually any game in any genre could be "The Next Big MMO" or "The WoW Killer." The only reason that hasn't happened yet is because no single game has combined all these features at launch. Either the games are full of hype as well as glitches and bugs, i. e. Warhammer, or their user interface and controls are simply too complicated for most beginning users to get the hang of, i. e. EVE. I really think if EVE wasn't so much of a spreadsheet game, with simpler controls it would have a much larger subscription base.