It really shouldn't take that much. Swinging at your last location is one thing, perfectly tracking you by sound so you can accurately target and chase people with it is another. Sound is not vision, but they are basically making everyone in the game daredevil and that is just effing moronic. What is sad is they even have a method of dealing with invisibility in the game it is called detect life. Just have a lot of enemies capable of casting it and move on. Sure that would also hamper stealth, and I know we can't hamper anything but magic in this game because everyone complained about it last time. But hey maybe in ES 6 no one will be able to hide under any circumstances and sneak attacks will tickle people, weapon attacks will bounce off most enemies and magic will be good since that is how the complaining is going this time.

I was wondering about this a lot yesterday when i noticed that even if i turn invisible before an enemy sees me, it will still notice me instantly if i start running around... Like the invisibility is nothing...
I think Bethesda meant to fix the broken Oblivion invisibility, by making it so that invisibility only works fully if you are sneaking and not making noise.... or something like that...
Probably it's the best way they could handle this... I remember in Oblivion i was running through whole Oblivion gates with invisibility without fighting anything and just grabbed the sigil in the end...

As I stated a few posts ago...A melee combat npc would ABSOLUTELY drop combat with you, if you vanished before his eyes. To keep following the sound of your footsteps swinging at you is SUICIDAL. They cannot see where your attack is coming from. Sure they might know you are in front of them, because that's where you were last, and they can hear you. BUT THEY CANNOT BLOCK A STRIKE THAT THEY CANNOT SEE COMING. The invisible person would 1-shot them.

Animals might be confused for a moment, then die because they couldn't see the kill stroke coming. Anything sentient would back into a corner, swinging in front of him, or holding up his shield. If he could hear your footsteps running away HE WOULD NOT CHASE YOU. Because he would die. He would understand this intuitively. The npc would stop swinging at you, and would NOT chase you.

And many would say "but that's BORING!" The solution is NOT to let the mobs keep attacking as if you had done nothing different. But rather, one or all of These solutions:


Non-living constructs don't know fear, and would keep attacking any one whom they an sense. Undead probably would too. But that';s a bit more abstract. Depends on how smart they were. A lich, knowinfg that it cannot be killed, might still back away, not wanting to be dismembered for the rest of eternity. Or not, whatever. Zombies probably wouldn't back off.

Maybe casting the spell uses up all, or most of your mana.

But really the best solution would be to make "invisibility" a master level spell. 100 illusion skill required, and can only be obtained through a quest line. On the way you could have some spells that improve sneaking, but not be as effective as invisibility.

And even then, have some or all bosses posses detect life, or some special dispel and be smart enough to use it. A large scale area of effect spell. But not the. Not the greatest majority of foot-soldiers though.

I mean the largest majority of common npc's are going to die anyway. That's the point. They're weak. Weather to sword and shield, archery, or magic. They were just going to die anyway. They are meant to.

This way invisibility can still make sense, and be useful, while not "breaking" (quotation marks to denote sarcasm) the game.

Its fun to see people arguing about such stuff.... "literaly" well.... if its illusion of the mind saying you "tell" their mind you are not there but you need a "high" sneak skill so they wont hear you farting.... but how can they hear you farting if your mind doesnt know that you "exist" and yet they go like " WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO my nose senses a foul smell in the air" and immediately attacks you.

on the other side if its alteration.....like carring around 4 3Meter Mirrors in your "Santas backpack" getting them out and taping them around you and you just sit there in a room and about 10 minutes later 4 Elven guards (no mages) enter the room and immediately getting aggroed by your foul smell since someone farted at the exactly same spot you sit right now....(and you already wondered why there was so much blood beneath your feet wich you cannot see =o )

ok the mirrors should bend the light not mirroring at all....theyd be surprised to see themselfs =D
SPOILER ALERT =O

Lol arbitrary data.

Plenty of people would walk forward swinging in your direction because they know you can't attack them while they're doing it; assuming they can hear you. Players without a shield would be especially likely to do this as they have no defensive option such as backing into a corner available to them.

A smart man wouldn't chase you for obvious reasons, but he wouldn't just stop swinging and back up. There'd be a split second of confusion followed by some frantic swinging.

and yes.. this is also subjective, see how useless it is as the basis of an argument?

I am so glad they took Chameleon out of Skyrim. More important than the removal of the spell-maker as far as over-powered elements were concerned.

Ever played a Mesmer in Guild Wars? or an Enchanting focused Wizard in Neverwinter Nights?

Ever heard of Optical Illusions? Those are illusions that tricks, or manipulates if you want to use the buzz word, your mind into seeing things that isn't there.

It is not some mind control that some of you seems to believe. Illusion School is perfectly suitable for Invisibility. Because it hides you from other's perception. It isn't you mind controlling other people to not see you.

As for it being broken. I actually like Skyrim's approach. If you want to walk around stealth-ed with impunity then you better have the stealth skill in addition to the invisibility spell. It is now an modification of your existing skill as opposed to a spell that trumps everything else. Magic still gives you an advantage over non-magic users (in the sense that having the spell boosts your skill as opposed to someone who only have skill), but it is no longer the only "stat" that matters.

[Edit]
IIRC Invisibility Effect lowers the opponent's Detection ability (e.g. lowers your % chance to be detected), it not a direct modification to your stealth skill. If you use the console and create an item with both invisibility and stealth bonus you cannot be detected unless they bump into you.

Invisibility is pretty poor Skyrim. If you are knee deep in trouble in some dungeon the it is not going to help you-and it should. Invisibility is pointless unless you have excellent sneak and muffle.Morrowind had Divine and Almnesty intervention if you were in trouble. Oblivion had invisibility. Skyrim has...well, you are screwed pretty much. Reload last check point and exit dungeon from there.

The reason Chameleon was broken is because you could achieve 0% detection.
The reason you could achieve 0% detection is because of the broken spell-making/enchanting systems.
Chameleon essentially works like fortify-sneak with a max-level toggle for invulnerability, the max-level toggle is the issue, not the steps leading up to it.

"they shouldnt know, it's mental"
How do you know what portion of their brain your are manipulating? calling it invisibility might be a clue here.

Lol, no i don't. Tell me where to meet you, and I'll bring a sack to put on your head. I'll even give you first swing. Then I will clobber you. I'll try not to make it hurt much, I'm not cruel. We'll try it again, and I'll give you first swing, then I'll run away from you, try following me and you will get clobbered again. Sure, you get to finish the swing you already started, the first time. But if it doesn't kill me, the fight is over

Why couldn't I attack you while you are swinging your weapon? They call it fencing. And not being able to see your opponent is an OVERWHELMING disadvantage. You would lose if you tried to keep killing me. And I don't have to attack you. I stick up my mage's staff, which can be used to parry, just not melee attack, then run away. It would be stupid to follow. Hell I could even use my enchanted dagger, which is mostly for show and the buff I enchanted it with, to block your wild swing and stab you in the throat.

Try it and I PROMISE you, that you will see that it's not just "my opinion" that not being able to see the person you are fighting is an overwhelming disadvantage. Maybe you've watched Star Wars too much, I don't know. But you really can't "reach out with your feelings", to know where to block and attack before it hits, when you cannot see the attacker.

You would be blocked and you couldn't see my riposte. It's not subjective. You can't see. It's not just my opinion. YES it's my opinion that you couldn't effectively do much about it. Let's try it and see if I'm right Or try it with a friend.

When you can't see what to block, swinging wildly WILL NOT work more than once or with extreme luck, twice, and probably won't even work once. Because I wouldn't attack where you are swinging, I would come at you from below, from above, or behind. I can see your sword...you cannot see me.

This is not a guess...I invite everyone to try it. What I described is what will happen.

...touché.

I found chameleon just nice as being able to choose to fast-travel, its there but you don't have to use it if you don't want to, and no i don't use fast-travel. But for some reason chameleon felt like real magic and it was quite funny when NPC's freaked out or accusing the alcohol or skooma for hearing things. something you can't without, unless you are a very good sneaker.

Edit: And its not like the game need you to do 100% chameleon, its totaly optional, if you want it removed cause you can't help yourself of using it, then its more your problem than a broken feature IMO

Know more about the lore, seriously. The UESP excerpts straight from the lore books. It doesn't contradict what the game says at all. Skyrim says there's no more mysticism, I guess there never was a mysticism by your flawed logic. Whats illogical is thinking that all the lore surrounding something as big as Illusion is in one brief, vague, in game Skyrim description. This must be your first ES game.

Lol, no that's not faulty logic. Bethesda made Skyrim. In Skyrim's description of illusion, it states, simply and clearly, that it manipulates the mind. When you take that in context with the fact that it uses MAGICKA how can you still say it's merely smoke & mirrors? Slight of hand misdirection? It uses magicka and BETHESDA SAYS IT'S MENTAL That logic should be clear to everyone.

Bethedsa made the game. It is what they say it is. If they contradict themselves, they are asking you assume an illogical premise. Invisibility is therefore illogical.

You MAY be right, but you'll have to explain it better before I believe it, because it looks, really, very cut and dried.

This made me laugh. It's funny because it's true! :vaultboy:

And regardless of whether or not it is "logical", it's a bad gameplay mechanic. Invisibility isn't very helpful considering the mana cost. It needs to be made helpful, end of story.

I like how this thread is still going, because trying to find as much logic in a world largely defined and shaped by magic is going to make sense of anything.

And characters can still hear you, they just can't see you. Did you know that Ray Charles used to scare the [censored] out of his manager by sprinting down the stairs of every hotel he stayed at on the road?

He had hearing better than a bat to make up for his lack of eyesight.

He also had the good sense to count the steps on his way up to whatever floor he was booked.

Just because you can't see something doesn't mean you've completely lost track of it. A guy stomping around in heavy gear is still going to draw attention after chugging that invisibility potion or casting the spell.

From my experience it seems invis is purely sight which makes sense really,just passed a quest in the game where due to invis and sneak I could run past all the enemies without aggroing them. However whenever I do get spotted I run around a corner pop sneak and invis and boom no one can find me.

only thing that annoys me is that if a quest Npc talks to you when you enter a room they can see you and walk up and talk to you like they could see you, even if I'm not shown as detected.

I agree 100%. The game is designed for there to be 100 ways to complete itor at least a few dozen.. None of them are set paths. You don't HAVE to choose Illusion\Invisibility. It was unfair to those who liked the concept, to remove it because other didn't like it. They could have used other methods that would have been more enjoyable, instead of removing what was fun for us, just because they didn't want to play it.

Bethesda just did what the loudest screaming players wanted. It's those players that are selfish and despotic. No one...no one...NO ONE was making them play with Illusion. Why take it from those who liked it?

I like cream and sugar in my coffee. So I drink that.

Some like black coffee. So they drink that.

And then some that liked black coffee, led a campaign to destroy all sugar and cream, because it leads to "bad health", and replaced it with splenda or nutri-sweet and non-dairy creamer powder. And then they say, with an air of superiority, "It's fixed now." When they could have just drank their coffee black, and not worried about everyone who likes cream and sugar.

The game is an apple, coffee is an orange. You can't compare apples to oranges. You CAN compare fruit to fruit. You can say apples are not divided into sections. and orange is divided into several sections. Both are fruit of trees.

You can compare the motivations and actions of one group, with the motivations and actions of another group. In this scenario, the actions of black coffee drinkers, and the players with the "it's overpowered" sentimentality are both selfish, and despotic, Because those who liked how illusion worked, were not forcing those who didn't like it, to use it, simply because it existed. But the "overpowered" criers have forced us to stop using what we like, so they would never have to use it. And they didn't have to use it.

And there is no reason they should care if we used it. It's not a competitive game. There is no one else playing it but you. There is no score. There is no leader-board. There is no one to compare them with us. So we couldn't possibly hurting them, or making them look bad. They just didn't want us to be able to use invisibility that way. That is selfish and despotic.

INVISIBILITY (<--- keyword there) was in Oblivion. I don't know what you call it in Skyrim, but if I cast "invisibility", and still can't escape a fight in a dire moment, then that is NOT invisibility.

No, your wrong, they broke it.

Don't care what you say.

Yea invisibility svcks.

Irrelevant.

Ray Charles was blind for 50 years. His hearing adapted to replace his sight. IT doesn't adapt immediately. Takes years. If you just suddenly vanish, your opponent is not blind, it's only you he can't see. His hearing could not adapt that quickly, especially when he's not really blind.

Truth: didn't read all the posts.

As an pure assassin level 42 I LIVE by invisiblility. Potions, *guild perk* power, and *racial* power. When i get in a fight I can't win, which is a lot since I play on master, i drop an invis, go into sneak and they completely lose me. I sneak up behind folk and slit their throat.

You're controlling their mind to not be able to see you.

That doesn't mean you're controlling their mind to forget you were there.

Having said that, I haven't yet used invisibility so I couldn't tell you whether it's broken or not.