Seen An post about the red flags on stolen items ... so Vote and say what you want too say.

What Sphagne says in the next post. Just, scroll further down. :vaultboy:

Like this:


Plus this:

I like Sphagne's ideas. I was going to do a big wall of text about how it should be done, but Sphagnes ideas are perfect.

What Sphagne said.

I would also like to support what Sphagne said. I really like the concept of NPCs recognizing worn items. I could just see myself walking along wearing a stolen cuirass, when suddenly in a shrill, wood elf voice I hear, "Hey! That's mine! Stop! Thief! Guards!"

I would also like to see some NPCs have a tolerance towards thievery. Especially if it's a first offense and your reputation is otherwise spotless.

You don't think the shop keep is looking, and you deftly pocket the amulet.

The shopkeep looks at your disapprovingly. "Put it back, Nord, if you know what's good for you."

Oops, busted. You place the amulet back on the table and exit the building. You don't expect him to be as forgiving next time.

I find all Sphagne 's points unacceptable .

Theft should be the easiest way to make money , this is why crime exist in the first place IRL, flagged items , psychic guards and merchants that can recognise 1 stolen bottle among 100 legit are immersion breakers .
Fences can be used to buy recognisable stolen stuff, like king's crown or a general's medal ; stealing one expensive item must make you insta rich as IRL.. Think that you have just stole the pink panther you go to a fence and ask for 10m if he offers 7m you go to another fence that pays better .

Someone becomes a thief because he doesn't wanna play by the rules , adding rules to theft is like cutting it's balls.

I choose the fourth one but If you stole like Bob's epic fist great Diamond that hit the black horse courier for being stolen then only a fence.

You should be able to place stolen items on NPC's, thus framing them. I'd love to see a guard arresting a totally innocent Bosmer. :whistling:

Is there any way something can be implemented to allow you to get away with theft, even when caught?

In-game example of how I'd like it to go:

You steal a sword from a man's home as he sleeps. It's just a normal sword, nothing special about it.

The next day, you're walking the street, brandishing the blade, as your victim walks past. He sees you with his sword. To anyone it's just another sword, but this man knows better, he's had that sword for 15 years, he knows every nick and groove on it. He knows it's his.

He chases after you, shouting and screaming for you to give back his sword, then he screams at the guards to apprehend you, the thief. The guards circle you, but with no intent to harm you, and ask if they can ask you about the sword. You can:
A: Refuse, and they'll forcibly detain and arrest you (or try to), and charge you for not co-operating, and maybe the theft too, since running or refusing to answer quests would lead them to suspect you of guilt.

B: Accept, and try to convince the guard that the blade is yours. Factors like personality, reputation, factions and the value/rareness of the stolen object will lead to the guard either arresting you for theft or letting you go about your business, and if this were Sphagne's system, removing the flag from the object, or at least lowering the the chances of you being caught for thievery, as others might still believe the accuser, even if the guards didn't.

Having a system like that, in my opinion, would increase the value of Personality and Speechcraft, which need as much attention as they can get, and add some more flavour to the game.

Why should you be arrested for theft when the only person who saw the crime is the person who would benefit from accusing you of theft? Crimes committed with witnesses around (excluding witnesses you've... silenced) would of course be much more difficult to cover up. But if your Speechcraft and Personality are high enough, there's no reason why you shouldn't at least be able to talk your way out of it.

Edit: Can't type for poop.

I rather agree with the above post, and a good portion of Sphagne's post. It would feel immersive, and you'd have to pay damn good attention to what you're doing... like any good criminal.

I'd also love to have a reason, a real reason within the game, to play a silver-tongued devil.

anyone not personally knowing of the theft should not realize it's a stolen item.

Just want to add my weight behing Sphagne's ideas. It's well thought out and appears to cover most bases simply and effectively. I also want throw in with Ahkmed del Ramesh in addition. I can't see it being too difficult to incoporate. I do like the idea of your speechcraft skills coming into play.

I thank your support, as I really like those ideas to be implemented, but I just read though out the other thread and collected a lot of ideas from other people and chose and kept the compatible ones and combined them and added some spice and formulation from myself to finalize the brew.

But those ideas only cover one side of the coin, the other side is covered nicely by what Ahkmed del Ramesh suggested.

I want it flagged but I want to be able to sell to anyone, like in Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

Where do we sign.

I like your suggestion Sphagne. I agree that is how it SHOULD work.

But I'm just thinking of the maths to encode that. That seems like it would be one heckuva multi-variate equation. I don't know much about the maths going on behind the scenes in the game. I hope the sort of complex system you are suggesting is possible and could AND WILL! be implemented!

I don′t aggree with the majority that you shouldn′t be able to sell items to vendors tied to Bob. If you steal a carrot from Bob the vegetation seller, and I sell it to his good friend over in the next market district, Elena Tomatos′r′fruits, the fruit seller, then she should not know it is Bob′s carrot, after all it′s not like she has seen all of his carrots now has she ?

That's a good point and added to the formula. :goodjob:


I have been a programmer myself and I know that it is not as complicated as it seems.

This is a simple distance calculation formula with a lot if quick condition checks, but if they have not added the internal data for keeping the position of the theft in the items, then they should add that data, and I do not know if it is possible in this stage.

Those checks should be added when you come into the line of sight of a person for the first time after a change in your inventory, (which would also require a timed flag to keep track of that for each NPC), and when you want to barter, and when a guard wants to check your inventory.

There should also be a flag to distinguish unique items. and an internal data to keep the time of the theft for the formula.

This is like this:

if item is not unique then {  if NPC is not the_owner then {    recognition = NPC.perception_factor * item_price_factor * NPC_in_faction_with_owner_factor;    recognition = recognition / theft_distance_factor;  } else recognition = 100 * item_importance_for_the_owner_factor.  recognition = recognition / time_passed_from_theft_factor;} else recognition = 100;recognition = recognition / distance_from_inspector_when_you_walk_by_factor;

Although the formula would probably be more complicated than this, but it shows the back bone of it.

It shouldn't be flagged as stolen, and you can sell it anywhere but to the original owner.

Except perhaps for unique items (like weapons) that could only've come from one person, then you shouldn't be able to sell it (without being caught) in the same village.

The system in Oblivion svcked The red hand on the items was so annoying, words can't even describe. This is an ancient fantasy world, its not like the guards can trace everyday items you have stolen when nobody saw you. Maybe in some cases, when you have stolen very rare weapons or something, then you have to sell it through a contact. Other than that, no red hand lame system. Just not sell it back to the guy or his cousin owning the other store in town and you should be perfectly fine.

I want to know what items I have stolen, and as an experience thief I should know what is the result of my honest profession, and what I have found otherwise, and red hands are only for our conveniences, and should not affect the recognition of the items by others.

That's right and guards should not recognize the junk that you have stolen, but if you have stolen a valuable armor from a neighbor, they should have heard about it, but the longer distance from the theft place, and the longer time that have passed from the theft, then the harder it should be for them to recognize stolen items.

I agree with Spahgne. I always thought it was odd that someone in Anvil will refuse to buy a silver goblet that I stole from a commoner in Bruma

Well, I liked the fences. It made me feel like I was part of some crime organization lol


However, I think that you should be able to sell it to other vendors OUTSIDE OF THE CITY if you do it quickly enough (say 24-48 game hours). That way, you are selling the goods before the word gets out the goods are stolen. If you make the time limit, you get away with the crime--otherwise it will get a red flag if you wait too long. If you ever go back to them, they might either report you to guards or just "forget it happened" depending on how high your friendship is with them--but maybe your friendship points take a hit for this breach of trust--meaning that unless you gain their favor again, they might not do any favors for you next time.

So going to a fence would always be the best bet, but you can still sell elsewhere if you are good with persausion/speechcraft.

I think that you should only need a fence if an item is of a certain value and uniqueness, and would difficult to shift without arousing suspicion. Rare jewels and priceless paintings and so forth.