Bah, anything can be made interesting, just not when you try and make it interesting by using already-used methods...

That's really only a handful of people. Apart from Tharn in Arena, you've got the major rulers of High Rock/Hammerfell (including Mannimarco), Dagoth Ur, Pergan Asuul and that's it really. The bad guys in Redguard died, in Battlespire Dagon was the bad guy (unless you count one of the daedroths under him such as Imago Storm)...

Well we do have Tharn's son-although my sort of idea would be that if Tharn were brought back somehow part of his agenda would be finding his son, who would turn out to be part of the Mythic Dawn cult (hence a slight connection between the events of this "prequel" and the events in Oblivion).

With Jagar Tharn completely dead and unrecoverable, which I find somehow a not entirely sound presumption. Granted, "physics" on Nirn may have little to do with how things work in reality, but technically, energy cannot be created or destroyed-only converted to different kinds of energy. That is to say his soul may have still floated off to someplace else or something.

Nobody is ever completely dead and unrecoverable in TES - the key is coming up with a way to make the return both interesting and plausible (or just interesting enough that plausibility is irrelevant)...

Ria Silmane.

Word 2

The former apprentice that helps the player in Arena?

Could be interesting to include her-although her return would likely have to be directly connected to Jagar Tharn's return-IF he returns. I suppose Jagar Tharn's son might also give her some reason, but only if he were to become like a super serious threat.

Then there's the question of why and how he is becoming a serious threat.

I've posted something on our forums for DJ to check out. Basically,

Tharn's son has become a blade. He is one of the best (being the son of the worlds greatest battlemage). Caius tells you that he is to join you on your journey. YADA YADA YADA. At the end of the quest, you are confronted by the Spirit of Jagar Tharn. He tells his son to carry on his fathers plans and tries to trick him into become evil. However, raised by the blades, he comes to a mental decision that he will not. Jagar attacks and you cast him back to the dreamsleave. Then you face the final boss.

That would be interesting...but rather...unexciting...I'd rather see his spirit made flesh for one thing.

The idea of the son becoming a blade would be interesting, and might make sense on some level, perhaps Barenziah placed the son in the care of Uriel Septim-although obviously Uriel was not his father, nor did he play that role, rather he was raised and tutored by Uriel's servants.

I'm not sure if that would be a good plot to use, because as I said I think it would be a very convenient thing to have him in the Mythic Dawn...then again, maybe when you meet him he's undercover as part of the cult, and you have to extract him because his cover may be about to be blown.

I like that idea! Lets extract him from the MD. So he's a blade.

Here's what we've got so far.

Ria is going to be the cheif antagonizer.

She will summon Jagar to buy her time at the end of the game. Question is, what is she buying herself time to do.

Any suggestions?

You do know that Ria was the girl that Tharn killed who then allowed the player to defeat Tharn the first time don't you? Why would she summon him back, she has more reason to hate him than anybody else around...

Because she knew who would buy her the most time. Plus he was just a spirit so she could send him away at any time.

Also there's the fact that Ria Silmane has always been dead in Arena -you'd have to have someone bring her back, but why would someone bring her back just to bring Jagar Tharn back? Doesn't make sense, if they could bring back Ria Silmane then why wouln't they just bring Jagar back instead? Plus, it cost her life to get the Arena PC to safety and destroy Jagar in the first place, it would be completly illogical for her to bring Jagar back.

However, in the latest PGE there is mention of Jagar's Official being locked away in the prisons of Black Marsh and a whole lot of recent escapes (which could be currently in your time), so that could provide you with an excellent summoner to bring Jagar Tharn back to life.


IMO, a cool sequence of events would be for Jagar to posses his own Son (destroying his Son's soul in the process), (being summoned in by an escaped sorceror who was a trusted advisor of his during the simulacrum (posibly one of the Characters in Battlespire)).
It would show that he's still got Loyal followers, and how much of a cold, ruthless monster Jagar Tharn is to possess his son, knowing it would destroy his soul, just so he could live again

If I may, it seems you are trying to rewite history here for the sake of a sensationalist plot. Allow me to shed some light on what happened, and go from there as to what could happen, and what cannot.

First and foremost, Ria was someone with love of the Empire, and a strong sense of loyalty and morality. Tharn had no recourse but to kill her. Even in death she was a relentless foe. Had she lived, she would have worn him down even faster.

Next, Tharn is dead. He is actually worse off, but I will not discuss those details. Forget him.

Now his son, that is another matter entirely. "Miscarried" is indeed a term used to make sure the subject is not brought up again. Often children of questionable blood, or with physical imperfections are "miscarried" then spirited away to be raised elsewhere. Tharn's son being around is indeed entirely plausible. Equally so, having him raised in the Blades. He is, after all, a Nobleman by blood. But also by blood, he would likely have some of the same weaknesses of his father. And as you wish to turn your eye upon Morrowind, remember the physiological rules of inter-breeding. Tharn's son, by virtue of also being Barenziah's son, would be a Dunmer. Quite likely an extraordinarily magickally gifted Dunmer.

If you wish to have foreshadowing, as well as keep this in line with the Oblivion Crisis, it is entirely plausible that despite Tharn's son being raised by the Blades, he also hears the call of Dagon, as did his father. And that lineage would be quite clear to Dagon as well. When most think of Dagon and destruction, you think of things like the Battlespire incident, and the Oblivion Crisis. As the foremost expert on Destruction, let me remind you that Dagon's influence can be far more subtle, should he so choose. A weakening of morals, a bit of callousness towards those once cherished, and a slow lack of empathy and care for values and ideals once held dear are all forms of destruction. But these are on a personal scale, a destruction of ones' self or soul if you will, and thus can be far more terrifying for that.

If you wish to return to Ria here, the only role she should take, the only part she can take, is that which she held before, as an advisor and voice of rightousness. To do anything else would cheapen her and the sacrifices she made. Do not go down that path.

-Ocato

The only reason to write him off is if an interesting return cannot be came up with...

"Barenziah and Eadwyre were married a year after the birth of her son by Jagar Tharn."http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b101_complete_barenziah.shtml

'After the birth'... "miscarried" is not the term used, its not even a word that yields a single result at TIL...

so....


the dunmer son of Jagar Tharn and Queen Barenziah is a blade. It would be rather cool if he posessed his own son..

I like this idea. SO!

Jagar Tharn will return to control the body of his son!

Alright, hows this idea:

Jagar Tharn takes control of his sons body, and to rescue him, you must speak to the spirit of Ria.

So instead of having some big boss battle, you are on a quest to recover the soul of your friend.

I leave for a couple hours and now everyone's unwinding this whole plot...and dammit Sabian why the hell'd you mention the whole Ria thing? That was supposed to be a plot twist, and now everyone who's read this thread would be fully aware of it if we were to use it... :swear:

From what information I could gather about her, which is somewhat limited-well she's basically a spirit (or IS she?) throughout all of Arena. It appears she knows the EXACT locations of each of the pieces of the Staff of Chaos yet she only gives the player vague hints (according to the UESP article), that almost seems like subtle sadism to me.

How do we really know she loved the empire...I mean, perhaps she was merely assigned as Tharn's apprentice? Well the point is so much is unknown about her so maybe she was lying the whole time and at that point she wanted Tharn dead and out of the way.

As for her death, did she really die? Did her soul really go to the afterlife? What I'm saying is not that someone brought her back to life, but that she actually devised a means to bring HERSELF back to life, if she was ever actually fully dead to begin with.

And yeah, it is for the sake of a "sensational" plot, so what? It's the one character no one would expect to turn out to be evil, or alive for that matter. I guess I'm really just taking advantage of how "primitive" the storytelling in Arena was (compared to modern games). Also, in the end...well, there is a certain possibility that there could be another Dragon Break which would end up explaining, at least in part, why there is no mention of these events having happened six years later in Oblivion. Of course, another reason might be that it's old news by that point...

Oh yes, and I do not particularly like the idea of Tharn's son being possessed by Tharn-I much prefer the Vader/Luke relationship possibilities. lol

Have you read the http://www.imperial-library.info/places/? It's a much better resource than what you'll find at UESP.

Ria was gradually divining the locations of the staff pieces, and she pretty much told you where they were (though she admitted she didn't know the 'exact' locations of certain places, she knew the pieces were there). Yes, she is http://www.imperial-library.info/places/ria_silmane.jpg in the game. She died before the start of the game and 'died' again at the end when she used up the last bit of energy holding her in her ghostly form; however as she says: "I will gladly sacrifice myself however, so that Tharn can pay for his betrayal."

Woah, well I don't think we'll be able to make Tharn's death quite as spectacular the second time around (at least not without creating some kind of intricate cut scene. Still, it's quite possible that his life energy escaped someplace, or that he even had some kind of back-up plan in place (perhaps involving the Doppelganger), the only issue has been that it's taken quite a long time for an opportune moment to arise allowing for Tharn's resurrection to take place.

I'd have to read more but perhaps the whole Ria as a villainess thing might not work-although I would like to see some kind of villainess as the "final boss"-I don't think that's ever happened in an Elder Scrolls game.

So you haven't heard of Almalexia?

And his death doesn't have to be spectacular, in some wise words "This is the way the world ends; not with a bang but a whimper" -a good meaningful and thought provoking end would go down as a great ending, not everything has to be big and flashy.

His life energy going somewhere else is the most logical conclusion - for instance, in a recent http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=851664 that I made I had the energy travel into the Staff of Chaos upon striking the Jewel of Fire (which previously housed it) thereby binding his lifeforce to the Staff (and since we don't really know what happened to the staff, this worked for me)... granted, I'm not saying to use my idea...


And if you want a villainous, Elysana is known to be quite the prune, and I hear there are a few unsavory ladies around Skyrim (not to mention the Glenmoril Wyrd as a whole, even though it in itself is not 'evil')...

Ah, wonderful quote...

I dont see many of these people caring if we gave away the storyline. Thats the point of the thread. :shrug:

Okay, time for an update on the plot. This is a total spoiler to what's going to happen in the mod, but I think we've established that we don't care about that here.

Okay, well we've got Caula Voria, Uriel's wife, and well since she withdrew from public life after the Imperial Simulacrum, she's been growing increasingly mentally unstable. Although if she had been left to herself, she may have been perfectly alright-a mysteriousness man has been visiting her recently feeding her information regarding the possibility that one of her sons is not who he appears to be.

It just so happens that she is the source of the rumors that have caused the riots in the Imperial City. She ends up at some point asking the player for help, although it is not actually her, it's revealed later that Jaufree, Grandmaster of the Blades, set up the meeting. When you arrive at the location where she is supposed to be living, you see a mysterious man in a cloak speaking with her, upon noticing you, he teleports away. The meeting is somewhat awkward, and she ends up not giving you too much information to begin with because she appears to be very distressed.

The next time you go to sleep, you are visited by a nasty wraith-like creature and the mystery deepens and all that.

Okay, so here's the final part, and there's some more complex stuff we're working on involving a Cult of Rangouh. But basically the "mysterious man" who's been feeding this information to Caula turns out to be none other than Jaggar Tharn's son. I'm not quite sure exactly what he's going to look like, but I've done some tests...

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/DJGamer/jag_son_threetests.jpg

That's actually 25% Bosmer coloration-however from what I've read maternal traits are dominant, so he may either be completely Dunmer-looking, or I'll decrease the Bosmer coloration even further still.

There's also this idea that the Emperor's illness comes from a magical connection created by Tharn's son between the state of the Emperor's health and the state of Caula's mind, which means you actually have to go inside of her mind (don't ask me how, I suggested Sheogorath be involved, but there is some opposition to that idea) and fix things in some fashion (in the case of it being Sheogorath's doing, I'd guess there's some risk of the player going insane in the attempt).

The Ye Old Bard is working on some of the other aspects involving Marukh or something like that-the whole thing's a bit complex as I said and I don't feel like posting the whole idea here-but that's all part of the larger threat facing Cyrodiil and the Empire.

It's almost as overdone is the whole "This good buy is actually a bad guy" thing.