Alright, here we go.


Our current Main Quest for Province Cyrodiil goes a little something like this:

During the Nerevarine Crisis in Morrowind, the people of cyrodiil were having there own problems with suspected doppelgangers to the throne. After serious questing and multiple revelations, you learn that one of the sons is indeed a doppelganger, Jagar Tharn, having bound himself to the daedra lord Azura long before Arena, an idea he got from Umaril the Unfeathered, Jagar commited suicide in his prison and was cast back to Moonshadow, where he was released by Azura to attempt to stay the coming crisis posed by Mehrunes Dagon. Posing as the son of Uriel Septim so that he may claim the throne and take action against the rising tide of war.


Alright, heres a couple things we've been debating, and I'd like some lore experts opinion on my opinion.

1. Jagar Tharn is really a good guy. He became evil out of necessity.
2. He destroyed the Battlespire because Mehrunes Dagon could have easily entered Tamriel through the Weir Gate.
3. He asked Mehrunes Dagon to help him with this so that he could gather intel on his assault on tamriel, after gaining this knowledge Jagar betrayed him instead of allowing him to enter tamriel as he was promised.

Alright. Now its time for the sparks to fly.

Wait, what??? What Main Quest are you talking about (TES III takes place after Arena events)? Are you bending lore here, or are you trying to sort out lore-facts? :confused:

He's trying to say Jagar Tharn is actually a good guy, but did a lot of 'evil' things to stop the Oblivion invasion on Cyridil

exactly.

Its exactly like Revan from Kotor1 and 2. xD


But I'm asking if this has any basis in fact, or could be accounted as acceptable lore.

Alais: if you want to find out about the mod, follow the link in my sig.

I think the whole "bad guy is actually a good guy" schtick is becoming quite overdone. I like the fact that Tharn is an utter bastich. I like the fact he is a power-mad dude.

And even in your theory, if you count morals and ends and means, Tharn would still need to be soundly thumped on the head. His methods would have been idiotic. He might not have thought he was a bad guy, but he was.

well, we're in need of suggestions. one of the things we really want to do is have Jagar Tharn be back.

And who was the last person who went bad by necessity in Elder Scrolls?

No one?

Jagar betrayed him? I thought it was Battlespire's pc that banished Mehrunes, without Jagar's help.

Well if you view Nirn as a thing that keeps you away from your true power, a prison as it were, then destroying it isn't such a bad thing to do. Though we don't know all that much about Yager Tharns motivations to speculate about it.

yes. But Jagar could have easily stopped the PC from getting to Dagon. However, it was in his interest (saving tamriel) to hold Dagon off.

Evil will oft evil mar in the words of JRR Tolkein

I'm personally against the idea itself, even though it WAS my idea to begin with...which actually makes it even worse. lol

My personal idea is either that he, being aligned with Mehrunes Dagon, was resurrected, or that some group resurrected him somehow.

I would like the idea that Jagar Tharn's motivations for doing what he did are deeper than what was apparent in Arena, heck I think it would be somehow interesting to do a kind of Dagoth Ur thing with him or something-or something like the question of whether or not the Tribunal actually killed Nerevar, although I think with something like this it'd be difficult to do, because in the end I think Jagar Tharn would have to reveal his true intentions.

Also, I think the plot for Province: Cyrodiil shouldn't be entirely that closely tied to what will happen in Oblivion. I mean, that would be interesting and all-but I think there should be hints and glimpses, like at one point you infiltrate the Mythic Dawn, and you learn a few things, but never really figure out anything too specific about their long-term plans.

Going back to Jagar, I think it would be interesting if he fed all this to the player in an attempt to deceive him/her. The player could ultimately believe or disbelieve it, allow Jagar to become a temporary companion, or just outright refuse his offers to help (at which point he would not be a companion, but would always seem to somehow be a step ahead of you in your quest to save Tamriel.

I'm not sure how well that idea would work, it's just sort of my compromise in order to incorporate Sabian's ideas without making Jagar into a total good guy.

There is a certain issue of how he comes back, I think someone mentioned something about his "soul" being drawn out of Aetherius or something like that by a group of which the doppelganger of one of Uriel's sons is a part.

Anyway, as I said I'd like to add some interesting touches to Jagar's characters to make his motivations a bit deeper and more complex and really flesh him out as a character, I think the idea that he's half Dunmer and half Bosmer could have something to do with his evilness-because he was likely an outcast of sorts. It'd be interesting if there were some kind of auto-biography he wrote or something. lol

Also, Sabian-EXCELLENT choice of title, now everyone who knows anything about Jagar Tharn will know to come see this topic, because it's so OBVIOUS that it's on the subject of him. :rolleyes:

Edit: Ok, I think I'm feeling you a little more now, but still.
A few things:
-Azura helped cause the crises posed by Dagon, she's not 'good', so why would Tharn be 'good' for working with her.
-So, Tharn is posing as an heir to Uriel after all Uriel's sons where killed and one remaining heir has 'departed'? I find it generally boring for Tharn to be posing as yet another unknown heir. Its also boring to have Tharn doing the same thing that Umaril did (the whole, same trick twice thing, even if its not the same guy).

Besides that, Tamriel went to hell in a handbasket while Tharn was emperor, he never did anything good...

You do know that Jagar Tharn let Dagon into the Battlespire...


And by the way, I think the link in your sig is broken...

That's because the old website went down due to the use of an outdated message board with poor security causing the host to shut it down due to hackers inserting phishing pages on the website...long story.

The new site is http://cyrodiil.deejaygamer.com

The message board is: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Province_Cyrodiil

The forums on the php fusion page are currently not sufficient for our purposes, although with some infusions they might be freakin' awesome.

Anyway, back on-topic.

I've been trying to tell Sabian how difficult it would be to suggest that Jagar Tharn is actually good, and he seems to be the only one on the team who thinks he should turn out to be good (granted, he's the leader of the team, but still...). As the administrator of the website and message board and in a sense co-founder of the project, well I think I speak for the team in terms that it is unlikely we will use Jagar as a good guy-although as I said it would be interesting if he attempted to trick the player into believing he's good.

Also, he's posing as one of Septim's current sons, this is set six years BEFORE Oblivion-it's a Morrowind mod. It may in fact be one of his servants posing as a son of Septim, actually-going with the whole rumor from MW about one of his sons being a doppelganger placed by Jagar Tharn. The actual son would be imprisoned similar to how Uriel himself was imprisoned in Arena-this is really just to make it sync up with lore that mentions that Uriel's three known heirs were all killed by Mythic Dawn.

Also, I don't think he'd be resurrected like Umaril, it is somewhat like Umaril, but I'm feeling very iffy about the whole "made a deal with a Daedra to effectively become immortal" idea, it'd be much more interesting if someone or a group of people actually managed to use some kind of spell to draw his spirit out of Aetherius and somehow restore his body (it could be that his body is not actually restored, and his "true" appearance is actually lich/zombie-like, and he uses his illusion magic to make himself appear "normal").

Actually, at one point Sabian had the idea to make Jagar Tharn a Lich, which would be interesting if we could make that work and actually make sense...

Jagar Tharn's body was destroyed, so he can't be brought back as a Lich. However, you could do something like having some sort of vague ceremony where his followers summon his Soul out from the Dream Sleeve and bind it to someone, possesion like.

Bind it to Fargoth. If you could write it up correctly, that would be the best mod ever.

Most annoying character ever, merged with the Soul of the most evil character in TES history. The problem is that such a being couldn't be defeated.

It would be interesting if it actually was somehow one of the heirs...but when he's found out, the soul somehow jumps out of the body and into another one. Considering that Fargoth lives all the way in Morrowind and the fact that he's so annoying that many players may have already killed him already-he wouldn't be all that viable a candidate.

I'd still say he might use an illusion spell to allow him to have the same appearance he had in Arena, perhaps because he's vain or something. lol

Plus, I just want to create a "Dunsmer" race of sorts. lol

Thus, he would be a truly formidable foe. Such a being would truly threaten all of Tamriel.

Just for the sake of ideas, I'd point out that Barenziah (Dunmer) had a son with Jagar Tharn during the Imperial Simulacrum...

If I recall correctly, the child was forcibly aborted-or so the story goes...

Well....if it was born...it can't be aborted...

The son was born after Barenziah went to Wayrest with Eadwyre. That's the extent of the information on him unless you know of some text I don't...

Did research, it was a child she produced with Tiber Septim that was "miscarried"-so yes that would be interesting...very interesting...

I find bringing Tharn back period, boring.

Jagar Tharn was never sent into prison. Like a lich, he had bound his lifeforce to an artifact, the Jewel of Fire. The Champion managed to drain the energy of the JoF into the Staff of Chaos in order to undo the banishment spell made with said staff. Because Jagar Tharn's own lifeforce was drained, he had an "I'm melting, I'm melting, what a world, what a world" end and nothing remained of him to be sent to prison.

Alright...

So does anyone have any ideas for a MQ?

We'd like to bring back a major character from past games.

Also, this is set BEFORE Oblivion.

Someone mentioned Jagar Tharn coming back after Uriel and his sons are dead or departed, but its before that.