The point missed is Morrowind was the mainstreaming point of the series. And there was no casualization. Only core gamers play TES. Not many people jump from playing Mines to buying a PC or console just for Morrowind, Oblivion, FO 3, or for Skyrim.

Mainstreaming for people who couldn't handle the rulesets of RPGs. Let's not forget Morrowind was Bethesda's first major success all around on PC.

Hell it was right behind Halo on the charts in the Xbox days.

You can't say between Wasteland, Planescape: Torment, and Daggerfall to Morrowind there's a vast plain of loss in RPG mechanics.

Morrowind to Oblivion was less profound a step. BGS took a new direction just like Morrowind. The difference was Gamebryo wasn't as great, they weren't as prepared for the 360 due to late specs and the PC version suffered, and all around problems in script and writing both due to staff like Emil plus the major costs of fully voiced characters. Even if it was like 13 people.

The TES series as a whole isn't like a 2nd edition D&D set. But Oblivion wasn't any road to being a mainstream RPG, Morrowind was.

And PC or Console developed other than DLC it was inevitable.

The gaming market would of grown to current standards anyway. And with so many core fans of different genres of action, adventure, exploring, Fps, tps, tbs, etc. it would drop complexity.

Not that all is lost. From the mid-2000s where linearity ruled we're seeing freedom and old mechanics as new selling points. One day too Daggerfall mechanics revamped will be new selling points.

Skyrim will be awesome. Original Post is good. I like it. The Devs made their game how they'd like to play it. I can't wait to see how it is, and then see the next TES game, which I'm sure will be even better.

All said and done. If the writing and dialogue for characters, quests, and the story is up to par with Morrowind or better.

I'd probably rank it my second favorite TES behind Daggerfall.

But that's prejudging on current info. We'll see

This guy knows what's up. But most of the complainers and whiners will be proven wrong when they play the game. They won't admit they were wrong let alone acknowledge that they were ever against some or any aspects of Skyrim as is one who frequents the internet is prone to doing. But if you keep track of certain 'nay sayers on these forums before and after the games release you will see a stark contrast in opinions. Before release somebody will be saying how spellcrafting being taken out was dumb and then after they've played it they will say how stupid spellcrafting is. Maybe not all the boohooers will do this but I can guarantee most will.

I agree. But I have seen some games though that really screwed up in their sequels though. Like GTA 4 practically ruined the series compared to GTA San Andreas. They took out skill leveling, character customization and loads of little things you could do which were just fun. Airplanes were not flyable anymore.. etc the list goes on and on.

I think Skyrim will be the best yet, but there might be a few things from Oblivion which I might miss, but I've never really complained about anything, I trust their judgement to make it play great. Not sure why you can't ride a horse in first person, the ones in Oblivion were fine I thought. I usually rode in 3rd person anyway... but it bugs me I can't in first person. Sometimes I like to. Just like you can't see your avatar in the menus, that bugs me a bit, but its not that important. The trade off of having streamlined menus seems worth it.

Most of that sounds like a bit of a stretch. There's no way you can convince me that Skyrim's removal of attributes is somehow similar to Daggerfall's attribute system. While I personally don't have anything against the direction they're taking it, it's still a completely different direction than ALL the previous games. Same goes for character customization. Also Morrowind had the trial and error alchemy thing going for it too. If anything the alchemy system is most similar to Morrowind's.

Technically I did that above. On my post to Omega.

The purpose of the thread is to be thought provoking. If you can't see past your own nose, and flat out state you cannot be convinced, then you've certainly come to the wrong thread (and personally the wrong place in general).

Nowhere did I state that the reduction in merged attribute count (it's not removal considering the purposes beyond numerically assigned statistics still exist in other aspects) was similar to Daggerfall's system. However, the fact that your skill progression is no longer tied with what attributes you increase is how it plays similar to Daggerfall, and unlike Morrowind/Oblivion.

While Morrowind also had those mechanics baseline, it still gave the concept of visible, tangible effects. Again, in a player skill sense it does its job, but it's certainly not a very sound concept when you look at it from an outside perspective. By no means was it a bad system, though.

I don't know maybe its just my mind, but i always held an expectations that Modders, intimate with the game would not have bought in so readily to the Hype on Skyrim so far, lets ignore that I did do the demo at pax, but im going to get the excuse that I didn't play it long enough, the rocks was a trap, enemies did not pick up rocks and throw them at you, IT IS A TRAP, even more so that that article was rife with mistranslation so we're going to omit that, as for the bashing and flanking, same deal in Oblivion. I do not want Oblivion Combat, Oblivion Combat is whack at it until it dies, I did not say I wanted Morrowind Combat either, so why you brought that up is beyond me.

Every TES game had Horrible combat but Oblivion was the best so far? maybe I did not read that right.


and there we go about "nice" effect, Sorry I'm thinking long term here, you know since most TES games span months, not just a few days. I don't care how flashy or purty it looks, if Its static I do not deal with it personally, and Im sure others will get bored of the same fire ball over and over and over again, Options in TES were there because you CAN, because you can do something different and tailor it to yuor own playstyle, anything that messes with that is a negetive in my Book.


infact Im not sure why you (probably) are looking at my post as if its a Negetive, I wasn't harping the OP or running him down, but for some reason anyone who show even a hint of "complaining" gets trampled.

In fact I don't think its fair that one can "praise" a game they haven't played yet and recieve likewise boosts, but one can't "critic" in anyway a game they have not played.


Never have I ever stated that Skyrim will be lesser than prior games, ever I also stress that one feature does not make the TES series but the fact that Many features providing many options do. just how far are Jobs and Marriage going to carry "depth"? I'm all for new features but never do I condone the notion that the addition of some features make it ok for others to bit the dust without a second look or Revamp, I'm tired of people instantly assuming I'm bashing Skyrim

You played the demo MK? How come you didn't do an impressions thread?

Everyone and their Grandmother was posting about it, what more could I add? not to mention some got railroaded for having critical view? meh I don't need that on my plate, I enjoyed the run through. (hell who am I kidding I want more)


All in all there is no doub't there is more to do in Skyrim than in atleast Both Morrowind and Oblivion, I don't think thats disputable with what info we've gotten so far. if thats considered depth than I whole heartedly agree.

OH and I was Suspended during pax so yeah, was handling that over the Ipod.

You lost me. This stuff was represented in the games...

A well-thought out counter argument to all the negativity swirling around the "It's dumbed down brah" arguments.

I'm not blind or stupid, nothing will ever touch the Mechanical depth of Daggerfall in this generation. But Daggerfall stands on this depth alone. It utterly lacks character and the vibrancy we see in Morrowind and even to some extent, Oblivion, though much more muted in the later.

What pains me most, is this sort of "Feigned" depth many forum goers tend to inject into both Oblivion and Morrowind. Neither game had particularly deep systems in place, at best a Shadow of what Skyrim is set to offer. While some people may count the individual points on the "Graph" so to speak when measuring the amount of variance in any given character, in practice there is no tangible difference between a Skill or Attribute score of 80 or 81, and while this source of development may allow for more individual paths through character development, the end point is exactly the same.

Recognizing that Morrowind and Oblivion only succeeded in creating nothing more than the illusion of depth is a key Revelation towards accepting Skyrim as a tangible leap forward in the department of depth. At the same time, it's important to realize in theory that certain "Features" are not mutually exclusive. We could have had a balanced and effective spellcrafting system along with the visceral and visual payoff of their current "Fixed Magic" system. The same goes for Attributes, we could have had attributes (and apparently we did at one point) and the current system.

Most of the "Dumbed Down" comments can always be rewritten as "Directional disagreements", since the actual depth in many aspects of the game has increased significantly, but by taking it in a (on some occasions an unfortnate) different direction.

By the way, we're less than Two Months away, can anyone believe that? It seems like only a week ago I was punching myself in the groin wondering why I was even watching SpikeTV to begin with. (Mass Effect 3 Reveal I think)

http://eyesalt.net/p/h%2Fx%2Fhxdkncxdaziuhgtxvtucavbrgfyoyeilcgkpfdyercawxurfes.jpg

missing game influence ! cough ~#FallOut ....

Good post.

I wholeheartedly agree and if I understand the post correctly I also disagree.

This sounds like those articles Ive seen that say Reagan wouldnt be conservitive enough for the GOP in this day (not trying to be political just saying it sounds similar)

You must work for the PR department. Your comments have as much fluff as it seems SR will have. :foodndrink:

Not trying to belittle, just annoyed that someone would think the consumers stupid enough to buy what you are saying (well, nevermind, judging from the comments....).

How many skills were in DF? How many will be in SR?

QED, my friend....

As for the rest:


Uh....I guess we'll have to see...wasn't OB supposed to have "have" Radient AI? :whistling:



Hmmm...what you mention sounds very similar to the Silt Strider and Mages travel that also existed in MW.... Now this is fine and all but it in no way does it really add anything to any supposed point you trying to make.



Ummm...no armor degrading.... no item degrading..... loss of using alchemical and spells on missing attributes.... loss of mixing spells together..... I am not sure you understand what you are saying....

Now, yes, so we have this HUGE loss in depth and cut content.....and this makes a more difficult game???? :turned:



Your comment here is complete fluff. You fail to even mention the huge loss in customization from having less skills. You fail to mention the loss of customization at the beginning of the game. You fail to mention the lost customization in game choices from missing attributes.

While the perk trees do add some extra depth to unlocking certain skills and abilities....we are talking about adding some depth to some skills and completely ignoring everything else......how can anyone even think this nonsense is better?


Nothing much to say here.... anything will, hopefully, be better than the OB dungeons....



I've heard nothing of alchemy. It would be nice if they at least get one thing right. :twirl:



You fail to present how gutting the attributes system is a good thing....nor do you present any evidence whatsoever about how having nothing but gimpy stat bars, a much smaller choice of skills to choose from, AND having no interskill linkages is somehow more similar to DF.... just saying.... :turned:

Most importantly, you show a common lack of understanding of the full potential of an attributes system. Go brainstorm some ideas involving a skill tree approach to strength/strain/attribute elements within a human body.

Oh, yeah, and don't forget to look more into the gutting of the item/weapon "attributes"....

Good post. However, it was confirmed that Oblivion style fast travel won't cost money after all.