As someone who has been with TES since '96, they have been literally one of my more favoured single player games and RPGs. However, on various image boards and forums all I can see is the constant berating of "Oh this is dumbed down" and "This game is casualized" baselessly spammed every opportunity it gets. The general spammers of such (not to cause flamewar) are from the Morrowind fanbase. Yet, I'm constantly perplexed by this as Morrowind was actually the first "black sheep" of the TES series, and objectively in some elements is more casualized in aspects.

So I've compiled a rough list of things to give people some perspective as to how Skyrim actually holds close ties with one of the more in depth RPGs of the series. This is by no means a full or final list, and I may revise it as I go.

Radiant Story: Arguably the closest similarity to the randomized elements in the quest generator for Daggerfall, but pushed a step further. On top of keeping things varied and interesting, it also promotes exploration and caters to providing different experiences for different playstyles.

Fast Travel: Skyrim has two options of travel. A paid service (carriage) which is akin to Silt Striders, but also the means of Mage's Guild Teleportation (Daggerfall) and a map function that calculates the trip, and the funds "necessary" in a roleplaying sense (EG inns, food, etc). While one could say this is a blend of two different, as Daggerfall had both options it again is its closest cousin.

Difficulty: Gone are the slider bars of Morrowind and Oblivion. Instead we are blessed with the concept of difficulty settings. What they entirely entail seems to vary, but goes well beyond the means of simply nerfing your damage output while increasing the enemies'. Whether or not the difficulty setting like the reflex setting in Daggerfall will reward you with faster leveling is beyond me. It's something that we will have to wait and see.

Character Customization: Again, while not quite as in depth as Daggerfall's generation system, we again see a return of one of its systems. Arguably two similar characters in Morrowind and Oblivion have very little to individualize oneself, while Daggerfall and Skyrim boast a way to broaden the gap between each playthrough, and branch us out in multiple ways of progressing through the game while keeping it fresh and engaging. However, while Daggerfall maintains more depth, the Skyrim system of perks is much more progression based (and thus more approachable by beginners or players that have yet to set foot into Skyrim, as particular choices in disadvantages in Daggerfall can be particularly handicapping).

Dungeons: Personally the perfect blend between the hand crafted dungeons of Morrowind, and the expansive size of Daggerfall's with the return of traps and puzzles. An additional bonus is the concept of level locking over Oblivion's level scaling, making difficult dungeons stay difficult until approaching them later on, again rewarding players for actually progressing with the game.

Alchemy: Blending the various flora and other substances found in the game world now is more appropriate to appropriate knowledge or trial and error, instead of simply being restricted by ones current list of ingredients and alchemical skill. While the systems in Morrowind and Oblivion were different, they were by no means a bad system. It does beg the question though why the same ingredients without the aids of tools and refining can suddenly "gain" more effects.

Attributes: This is a real can of worms in particular. While a lot of them have simply been merged into other groups, and simplified to fewer categories and less tangible numerical increases, how attributes and skills are tied into progression are again most similar to Daggerfall. Morrowind and Oblivion had systems that tethered your progression to your skill use, either horribly restricting your early game potential due to not using specific skills (EG fighters avoiding endurance based skills to not have a measly chunk of HP with races not pertaining to Orcs and Redguards) where creatures are lethal (especially if RNG looks down on you unfavourably) like in Morrowind, or your late game potential where things scale (EG not maximizing your potential increases of attributes, allowing the creatures that scaled to become considerably better than you over time).

I'm sure I'll be sieged with an onslaught of "then why is 'x' not in the game" or "but this very minor feature that only caters to one type of playstyle and only in limited used/areas isn't in so it's less deep", though hopefully you have will gained a little bit more perspective on this, and why I as an avid fan of PnP, RPG mechanics, and the TES series, believe Skyrim will potentially be one of the best games in the series.

You forgot to also put that everything in the game is going to be handcrafted and not randomly generated. Well that is what Todd said.

Well done. I'd love to add onto this and give a few corrections as I usually do but I'm a bit worn out today. Might drop something tomorrow. I agree with you on those fronts though.

Great post, Makkura_No_Zennousha. I enjoyed reading that.

I agree with you.

Um...

define depth

Stuff to do right? Skyrim has plenty, Depth isn't catagorized under one leaf but many aspects, Im sure Combat will have next to no depth, as there are no dynamics other than swing till it dies, the magic system 2 spells they do not interact, combine the same spells for a greater effect, whoopie, if thats not simplified an arranged im not sure what is. Quests? I've read 8 different versions on how people got to the Dunmer theif, I think that will supply well. Factions? a grand total of 4, from the what 13 in Morrowind? bar any notion of comparing Morrowinds gameplay to now, it was about choices and it stomps so far.

World? Skyrim may shape up to have an interesting and varied world, what 9 holds different politicks? maybe it will shape up more to the one dimensionality of Oblivions 9 Counties.

I'm glad you didnt cite Perks, such are extrovert, serve as bonuses and really do not effect the char internally, just how much they can kill by percent values, armor? not sure can't say With Marriage, maybe its a hint at more dynamic interactions with NPC's they haven't talked much about it, so thats to be seen as well.


Will Skyrim have more Depth than Oblivion? pfft undoubtedly so from where Im standing, will it have choice? to be seen.

While there are plenty of other features in Skyrim that certainly are more "in depth", they are features, things that seperate them from the other games (which really the series is all about). I'm more approaching the core aspects of mechanics and gameplay. I'm certainly glad the hand crafted and varied landscape is around though. It is arguably one of the improvements.



Thank you, I will be eagerly anticipating reading over your concepts.



You're welcome.


Alien technology can make people do crazy things.

Every once in while on these forums, something brilliant comes along and while Skyrim is going to be amazing, this post...was brilliant!

he said that unless he ninja edited :ninja:

"It does beg the question though why the same ingredients without the aids of tools and refining can suddenly "gain" more effects."

As you become more knowledgeable about alchemy you understand more about the ingredients, including how to use them in different ways.

Can i has cookie?

Honestly though, we will have to wait and see how all this stuff actually works in the game. It has potential but it all seems eerily similar to the marketing that was done before oblivion ("radiant AI") etc.

Depth in the concept of gameplay refers to all the things that define the system in itself, and how it works. In other words, how simplistic or complex either up front of behind the scenes it is.

A good example of this is how quickly you attack the combat. While it is no longer based on dice rolls for whether you hit the target, it also isn't to say that we're going to be doing static damage with the same weapon either. Plenty of variables come into play with the combat that give it a lot of depth.

What our stamina is, our skill with the particular weapon type, our perks, timing, how we attack, whether we use power attacks, whether we recoil back from a successful defense, or penetrate their guard and onslaught with a flurry of quick attacks, etc. Personally that's quite a bit of depth comparative to what you believe.

As for the Magic system, again this is a can of worms. Some people will certainly argue that they would prefer to use exploitive use of spell effects not meant to be used in such manners to gain advantage, or to use more powerful spells than available through circinated abilities. I see this as a "false" means of depth. While the spellcrafting system was indeed deep, it took AWAY from the standardized spells outside of being purchased at the most cost efficient manner in order to acquire the effect for spellmaking. It is something I likely will edit into the main post and expand onto later concerning these two aspects, but I haven't fully gathered my thoughts on them. As for how Magic is also similar to Daggerfall, we see spell types being casted around our bodies have returned from Daggerfall (EG Firestorm).

EDIT:



I'll give you a cookie regardless because I'm a kind soul. However, knowledge about particular reagents is one thing, but being able to encapsulate the newfound effects behind things are generally done through means of refinement or using tools (EG crushing, burning, or separation), while without aid we are simply left with concepts such as internal use (digestion) or external use (rubbing/wrapping).

well when does visual effects become depth? Don't get me wrong a Self AOE blast is beyond useful and adds an option to address a situation YES, but it seems like a reversal more ways to cast magic, no ways to edit it make it your own.

and why aren't Dragon shouts in your list? they are the single most massive boost to player characters in a TES game.

Depth - the ability for one to see further than Morrowind in the TES franchise



http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1223874-skyrim-information-v/page__hl__factions- 4 MAJOR factions along with many other smaller factions, some join-able, some not, some it is unknown if we can join or not, and some probably still as yet undiscovered.

• Thieves Guild (Joinable)
  
• College of Winterhold (Joinable)
  
• Companions (Joinable)
  
• Dark Brotherhood (Joinable)
  
• Riverwood Tavern Warrior Clan
  
• Stormcloaks
  
• The Shield-Brothers
  
• Necromancer Faction (Not Joinable)
  
• The Imperial Legion (Joinable)

Great post and excellent points. At the end of the day people will love it, hate it, or be somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. I will enjoy Skyrim for what it is, as I have done for other Bethesda games.

In order to have this debate you need to set an objective criterion for game depth, or at least set a basic scale for what constitutes as greater depth or lesser depth.

Reasonably speaking, only 3 of the listed components can be said to contribute to any sort of game depth: character customization, Radiant Story, and the new take on Dungeons. All of your other points don't really claim or state anything, they're not even really arguments. Pretty much, your post was just babbling with big words attached.

For example:

"Alchemy: Blending the various flora and other substances found in the game world now is more appropriate to appropriate knowledge or trial and error, instead of simply being restricted by ones current list of ingredients and alchemical skill. While the systems in Morrowind and Oblivion were different, they were by no means a bad system. It does beg the question though why the same ingredients without the aids of tools and refining can suddenly "gain" more effects."


"more appropriate to appropriate knowledge or trial and error" this doesn't even mean anything. It's a senseless combination of words that don't make any sort of point. In addition to this, you don't explain how morrowind and oblivion's system has less "depth" -- therefore we cannot acclaim the new Skyrim system as having any more depth. You do say that the ability to achieve more potion and alchemy ingredient effects is less realistic, or perhaps nonsensical, but you don't set out to prove how this is any detriment to game depth or even how one who holds the position that this system isn't nonsensical would respond. You prove nothing and provide no counter arguments.

I think Skyrim has more depth than people are giving credit for, but your post didn't convince me.

Fixed, and I don't need your snide comment about Morrowind, it is the most useful reference point to a detailed world that has stuff going on before and after you look at it, as well as choices and options that are actually fleshed out and not one way for its time.

Shield bros IS from the Companions guild, and Taven brawlers isnt even a group, a forumer made it up as an observation

Very well said. If you don't mind, I'm going to copy-paste this and save it so I can post it on other forums where illogical Skyrim hate is rampant.

Visual effects only tend to add depth in terms of animation restricting and animation blending, or making certain things more accessible to do in terms of movement. As for Dragon Shouts, they are a new mechanic which is why I don't address them.



"So I've compiled a rough list of things to give people some perspective as to how Skyrim actually holds close ties with one of the more in depth RPGs of the series."

It appears you perhaps should stop putting words into my mouth and actually go over a few important operatives. The purpose is to show relation to previous systems, AND to see the depth behind them. There's a considerable difference between both approached separately, and objectively quantifying them together. I could approach many other aspects, but it really seems you haven't given much thought and believe I'm trying to "argue against" something objective, or believe I need to qualify something that is quite concrete in its concepts.

Skill Tree. Not Perks. And they've helped define thousands of consumer bought and free community RPGs. Weaknesses aside it's a strong system and your not exactly throwing any clear cut weaknesses at it. Clearly it does add depth and work to define your character.

I do like the Perk system myself though and wouldn't of minded Skyrim using it. But their not. And it'd require an overhauled Attribute system. Which wasn't dumbed down.

Back to Depth. TES's attribute system had none. Here's a recent quote. I've had more detailed ones before and I've repeated them several times. I'd repost that instead but at this point every time I try to use my post history I fail to find what I'm looking for. Too many posts to sort through spanning months.

I honestly didn't think I'd be as involved in Skyrim and the community over the Fallout section of the Beth Softworks forums. Anyways:



If something had no complexity and attributes like intelligence only served to be ingrained back into one or two of the base 3(Str, End, Magicka) then it's all fairly pointless.

And if I'm not mistaken in another thread you seemed apt to dismiss elements that really did nothing.

This is a prime example. They needed to revamp the attribute system instead of showing how the TES system has been all along at its core and foundation in a barebones state.

So really on the attributes system nothing has changed. At all. Just a few less slots to scatter points into to go straight to the base 3. Now you inject directly.

Actually I have noticed a good amount of Daggerfall influence myself.

Well, I didn't create the info just linked to it so thanks for fixing and apologies if my sarcastic comment offended you, but you're condemning a game you haven't even played yet. It's like saying you don't like sushi without ever having actually tried sushi. For me there will be a lot more value in the information posted to this forum after the game is released. Right now it's all just speculation. And not just from people attacking the game, even from those of us praising the game. We think it's going to be great, but we won't really know until we've all played it.

But, the wait for 11.11.11 for me is unbearable right now...so we may as well have some interesting banter in the meantime.

Cheers mate :foodndrink:

Not seeing it. I just see cutting, and bringing back a few features here and there. Nothing on the level of Dagger or Morrow though.

A good post.
I'm not fond of the casualization myself, I started the series with Morrowind which most certainly did not hold my hand. I was moderately young at the time so one cannot use the "increasing demographics" excuse. I was truly in the 10-12 age range with Morrowind. I played the -hell- out of it and STILL do to this day. I did kind of like having to constantly go to my journal to find the directions.
In Oblivion? I don't recall reading many journal entries at all. The red arrow did everything for me. And it wasn't as simple as "turning it off", either. I couldn't, as far as I know.

However, you outlined many of the reasons I'm still excited about another installment of the game. As Toss said, there's more content. More to DO. I approve of this.

Awesome post OP. Daggerfall is the best in the series by far, but I believe Skyrim will surpass it.

How can you [censored] about combat, when it is clearly superior to any prior elder scrolls game? What are you going to do when an enemy lights you on fire with his torch and bashes your head in with a mace, while getting flanked with arrows? They also drop boulders on your head from above, and dual wield just like the player can. Are you going to say "wow, I really miss Morrowind's turn based combat with horrible animations and sound effects right now"? I really doubt it.

What's funny is the people that complain about combat... what are you comparing it to? Every previous TES game had horrible combat. From what I've seen Skyrim will be way better than Oblivion and Oblivion was the best thus far.

At least magic appears to work now. Everything we have seen has a distinct functionality and appearance. Each Spell has a nice effect.

As for factions you have forgotten the imperial legion, the storm cloaks, the blades, the rebels and probably several others that haven't been announced?