Manker Cameron was Jagar Tharn.

Another stupid theory of mine. And just to get the preliminaries out of the way, theres really no evidence in any of the games to support this. Id be surprised if Im the first to bring this up.

So on to Speculation.

1. Both are halfbreeds that seem to share the same linage particulars or confusion about their lineage. Notable is the Bosmer mother.

2. Both had ties to Dagon.

3. Both Want to take over the world.

So what if Jagar was a first attempt? What if Mankar (Or Raven if we must) initiated a takeover attempt earlier on. Or even better yet, it was a rehearsal? Surely in the ten years that the Simulcram ruled, it could have been discovered the Amulet of Kings was the tower stone. The Sewars mapped. The Blades escape route planned. Hell the blades were under Jagars command right?

Why not take the Amulet from the Emperor before? Maybee they couldnt or wouldnt. Lots of holes in my theory but should be good discussion.

Or maybe they are related somehow. I do not know but keep working on that theory there.

Well, maybe Jagar just wasn't interested in tearing down the barrier between Oblivion and the mortal plane to that time, so he didn't bother with the amulet.

This will turn out to be an interesting topic.

Jagar Tharn and Mankar Cameron were two different people. I haven't finished Arena.. oh, DOSbox, bless your little heart.. but I think I understand the motives that differentiate our villains. I see MC as fanatical, devoted to the Mythic Dawn and Mehrunes Dagon. He believed he would bring about the rule of his master. Jagar Tharn, on the other hand, is out for Jagar Tharn; true, he strikes a deal with Dagon in imprisoning the emperor (?) and in destroying the Battlespire. But this deal seems more in line with any other deal with a Daedric Prince, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Only on a much grander scale. "Oh yes.. for Lord Dagon, etc.. red-drink, blah blah.. now, what new little toy have you got for me?"

Jagar Tharn was an opportunist, evil, and ambitious, who seems to come out of nowhere, with uncertain parentage/history. I see him like the evil version of the archetypal TES hero. Why did you do this, Jagar Tharn? Because he could!

The Amulet is an interesting detail, though. You've raised a point I was wondering on, myself. Jagar Tharn certainly could not worn the Amulet. Was it in his possession nevertheless, or did Uriel Septim somehow have it with him in Oblivion? (Why didn't they kill Uriel Septim outright, instead of replacing him? Besides "Then we wouldn't have Arena") Perhaps the Amulet protected him there?

Though few knew of Jagar Tharn's masquerade as the emperor, I think the Mythic Dawn would have laid low about it. Tharn was useful to Mehrunes Dagon, so I think he would have called off his dogs. The time wasn't right for anything grand. And Uriel had other heirs running about at the time, his three sons who were sent off to remote places, and his bastard, Calaxes.

Regarding the Blades, it was said in Arena that Jagar Tharn replaced the "Imperial Guard" with his own twisted version of men and monsters. I like to think that Jagar Tharn purged the Blades for his own purposes, "retiring", disappearing, or outright executing the old guard in order to preserve his rule. Certainly the older members of the Blades would remember personal details and mannerisms of the true emperor, and sense something wrong or amiss with "Uriel". If Barenziah could figure it out, having only seen the emperor a few times, certainly the emperor's bodyguard would find that out. I like to think that Jagar Tharn seriously disrupted the institution of the Blades, damage they felt on up to the Oblivion Crisis.

This has been answered in a previous thread, but I'll go ahead and wax a little bit about it. If Tharn was the Imperial Battlemage, he could easily whisper in Uriel's ear and have his will done. If he only wanted rulership of the empire, he didn't have to do ANYTHING because he already kind of had it. As far as why he didn't kill Uriel... Dragonfires. They'd go out. Everyone would know that the emperor was dead.

So... what did Tharn want? The IC. Or at least the white-gold tower. It IS a divine launch pad, after all. What was his goal? Apotheosis. Did he do it? I don't think so, but since he's rumored to still be around, who knows?

As for his real identity? I'd like to believe he is somehow related to Mankar, but I have no proof of this. Maybe he is though. It'd be kinda' cool. You know...Jagar Tharn, aka Tharnatos Camoran. Or something like that.

Aha. Of course. I hadn't realized the lighting of the Dragonfires was needed in each and every case, rather than in the sudden crisis in TESIV. That would explain why Tharn only imprisoned him. Ahhh, I love it when plot holes close up nice and neat like that. Very good.

I want to believe Tharn is all nice and dead, never to return. We've had enough of him. I don't like villains recycled for later games, or heroes. (Unless the Big Bad in TESV is a deified Nerevarine, who has used Kagrenac's Tools to wreak vengeance on the Nords and the inwah.. )

Though I like to think that Tharn "lives on" in stories told to children by their mothers. "Be good or Jagar Tharn will come for you" etc. Or that in the Imperial City, there is a "Tharn Night" where they burn carry effigies of the Arch-traitor through the different districts, hit it with sticks and stones, set it on fire, and finally toss it in the brine when they get to the waterfront.

I think one of the most interesting things out of this Cameron/Tharn discussion, though, is that they are both elves of some kind. I am really liking this continued theme of elves vs. men, especially when it comes to the fate of Cyrodiil, and also its history, as we saw in Knights of the Nine.

jagar tharns is cool! i like his name, he feed me fish and mice!

Mankar Camoran spent hours blabbing about the old ways and a revival of the merethic era. He was a frothing fundamentalist. Why would this radical change in views, motives and sentiment ocurr in a later version (?) of him. Their personalities clash horribly. Jagar Tharn was a sweet-talking bard, MC is freaking Pat Robertson.

:rofl:

If we remember that mortals "give birth to their own fathers", plus take the "walk like them until they must walk you" concept of mantelling a higher being, then just as Ysmir is Zurin is Tiber is Wulfharth is Lorkhan, etc......then perhaps Tharn is Camoran is Dagon. I do admit that Camoran and Tharn existed at the same time, but so did Zurin and Tiber in the eutanimorph/Heresy issue.


Taking those two personalities and remembering that "http://til.gamingsource.net/book_daedra/index1.shtml#mehrunes", I can see a great deal of similarity concerning Dagon's Spheres. I think that the original theory, while it may need slight refinement on minutae, definitely has merit.

Tharn personifies the "ambition" aspect of Dagon's Sphere, on the other hand, Camoran personifies the "destruction" aspect.

Actually, that can be fixed when one takes into account the the fact that Tiber and Zurin were acting out different parts of the enantiomorph. Similarly, if there was a masterminded plot to gain ultimate metaphysical power somewhere here, Tharn would act out the part of the "King," Camoran the "Rebel," and Tamriel it(her)self the "Female." The only thing is that they couldn't get the cycle going into an unstoppable state because Tharn was discovered before Mankar could put his part of the plan into action. Therefore, instead of having Mankar "usurp the King for the sake of the Female" and getting both of them some sort of ascension, the Eternal Champion usurped poor Tharn and ruined the whole thing. Now completely raving mad, Mankar furthers his "deal with the devil" with Mehrunes Dagon in an attempt to at least secure control of Tamriel, if not apotheosis. Or something.

Of course, the above would imply that Mankar and Tharn were working in cahoots with each other and had a master plan with their organization to take over the universe (or ascend -- take your pick). But wait, wasn't Nu-Hatta http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml#8

Mankar Camoran and Tharn were Ayleids, both in ideology and (possibly) in race. Hence the fact that they both have ambiguous racial heritages that would seemingly contradict their "Bosmer" mothers (who says they were actually Bosmers and not some of the last Ayleids?), hence the fact that they both liked big plots, and hence the fact that this conveniently plugs up a lot of stupid plotholes.

Thank you, MK.

So would it be safe to assume that in the Male vs Male over Female drama that is the entanimorph that Tamriel is the female?

Since Aedra and Daedra are male or female at whim, is it also safe to assume that the struggle is over Lorkhan [Her]self?

And if one is Male by virtue of being in the struggle, plus achieves the lovely Lorkhan, combines the Male and Female? Is that why the Heart could not be destroyed? Because to destroy the Heart destroys the struggle. To destroy the struggle destroys individuality, which means that any one entity ceases to be, being melded back into the whole. To destroy the individuality returns all to the [CHIM] of I ARE ALL ARE WE. To do that defeats the purpose of the creation of Nirn in the first place, which was Lorkhan's avante garde idea and would not want it destroyed in its entirety.

Vivec, the male who stole the Heart of the Female becomes both.

VIVEC WAS RIGHT!!!!!

Am I going down the wrong track on my "MK training wheels" or did I just understand something more?

Ah but your mistaking fictionalized personality with Historical Personality. We have very little to go off of. The cutscenes in Arena and the notes in Battlespire. We never really meet the real Jagar Tharn except at the end of Arena and it would be extremely unusual for someone to be anything but angry at the hero who foiled the master plan. A life and death struggle is no place to get to know someone....well except Bladerunner.

That's a good cat. Here some fish.

Well, this is fun...

Can someone lock this? Looks like we have a case of thread necromancy

I always thought Jagar Tharn had something to do with the Greedy Man, conspiring with Dagon and all.

Hmmm. A profane enantiomorph that eventually mantles Mehrunes Dagon... hmmmm.

Anyways. I have nothing to add, but its a fun theory.