He does however, say that his plan will make the world cleaner, which suggests that the plan is for much more than just the general DC area. I have no reason to doubt him either.

Also the end slides say that the Enclave "wins" when the virus is implanted.

They never really tried.

It is as easy as poisoning a few people. There are only a "few people" in DC. As for the other part I did not get that at all from Edens plan.

Enclave have Vertibirds. Fly over Magaton and shoot the damn A-Bomb. Drop a dozen troop at Rivet City and take it.

Enclave in Fallout 3 were pathetic and weak. New Vegas talks about the Renmants moving East, cutting swaths through Legin ranks. A group of old people can do that and yet hundreds of men can't even take back the capital building?



Brotherhood have to drink as well. They will die just like the rest. All the Enclave had to do was once again Fly over their bass and bomb the crap out of it. Death from above!

About a lot of individual people has it been said that the world is better without (the same as saying the world is cleaner without them). The suggestion isn't really there without you considering it as such, so it's not really there.

They should have tried. Hell I would not even call it trying. It would be like a super mutant going to war with a ant hill (normal sized non-mutant ant hill).

Again though, that doesn't automatically deny the possibility that Eden was not exagerating, that's just one interpretation of his phrase.

The other is that he did indeed mean that the world becomes cleaner.

what'd be the point though?

Eden only mows down the Autumnist forces in one area (the entrance area) the other deaths were caused along the way by the lone wanderer (so no blame on Eden for that). My theory is, is that Eden shuts down that door to prevent people just accidently walking in and getting caught in the cross-fire. Its my view that, while Autumnist forces must have been in other places, Eden only "clears the way" for the LW in one area, which is also where Autumn was taking off with his forces on Vertibirds (which helps to explain the high concentration of Autumnist forces in the area). While I suppose its true that he cannot 100% confirm that he is shooting at rebel troopers, I believe that since he is using sentry bots and laser turrets, and since its the policy of "step out of the way and let the LW pass" there was a greatly diminshed possiblity that innocent loyalists were killed. He wasn't just blasting away at random Enclave, he was blasting away at those who were attacking/opposing the passage of the LW (and therefore disobeying his orders).

I did argue the point about him not being able to trust all of them, but that's just a theory as to why he may have chosen to use the LW. I believe that most of the reasons for his choice are the capability of the LW and the fact that nothing would have changed even if the LW betrayed him.

We don't really know what happened to Lt. Williams, and there's no reason to suggest that he was "reassigned" to the front lines or anything like that, he may have gotten a slap on the wrist and nothing more. He broke protocol and contacted the President directly (surely just asking a superior officer or the like would have been sufficient).

I also don't believe that Eden would have necessarily had to "do something" wrong to make those soldiers turn against him. They were a minority of Enclave forces and its possible that Autumn kept a loyal group of "yes men" to do anything he said. It also would be natural for some men to look to Autumn (as their commander) and obey his every word (despite the craziness of his plan).

Apparently, there is also alot of loyalty to Eden. I don't know about you, but I never heard "For the Colonel!" as an Enclave battlecry, it was always "For the President!".

This Debate is no longer about Mr.House vs Eden is it?

Some Problems with Enclave:

They did not need the Purifier.

They could have just put the virus in the water.

Why did they not just take it back by force?

Why did the brotherhood not care Enclave were around?

They could have taken DC by force in a couple hours if they wanted, yet they sat on their butts for close to 30 years :banghead:

Really the only threat they had was the BoS and Enclave have better weapons and complete air dominance.

This Debate is no longer about Mr.House vs Eden is it?

Some Problems with Enclave:

They did not need the Purifier.

They could have just put the virus in the water.

Why did the brotherhood not care Enclave were around?

They could have taken DC by force in a couple hours if they wanted, yet they sat on their butts for close to 30 years :banghead:

Really the only threat they had was the BoS and Enclave have better weapons and complete air dominance.

Enclave were in DC before the BoS so really the Enclave could have built a force field around DC from the start.

Just goes to show that the focus in Fallout 3 did not go on writing.
And that is not said in attempt to bash Fallout 3. Just to bring out flaws of a game to make the next iteration - even if it will be Skyrim with guns - a better game overall. Fallout 3 did not - generally speaking - lack on anything but RPG mechanics and writing.

1 They did as it would be very effective to there plans
2 Isn't that what they tried to do?
3 Well it was only a small amount of enclave personal at raven rock
4 Good point but it would be silly for them to mindlessly hunt eyebots
5 same reason as 3
.And tingly in there pants wouldn't the power armor just crush there erection?

This Debate is no longer about Mr.House vs Eden is it?

Some Problems with Enclave:

They did not need the Purifier.

They could have just put the virus in the water.

Why did the brotherhood not care Enclave were around?

They could have taken DC by force in a couple hours if they wanted, yet they sat on their butts for close to 30 years :banghead:

Really the only threat they had was the BoS and Enclave have better weapons and complete air dominance.

Enclave were in DC before the BoS so really the Enclave could have built a force field around DC from the start.

I don't think the writing was a sham like people make out but it wasn't fallout 3's forte.

1) They could have killed eveything in DC on Day One when they set foot in DC. Enclave could have used Gecks to make things fresh and clean after everyone was reduced to glowing goo piles.
2) They tried but Bethesda made them weak and pathetic, so much so they can't win against super mutants with hunting rifles.
3 Like I said 5 old people can cut swaths through legion ranks a few dozen could have done much better. Again Bethesda cutting off the Enclaves nuts.
4) No it would not be silly. BoS know the threat of the Enclave. The tech would be to good to pass up. Every least the Outcast would be looking for them.
5) same reason as 3. Yeah the medics have a hard time keeping up with the amount crushed erections. (pun not intended :shifty: )

Really Styles I will never understand this facination you have with just blowing [censored] up

To me it seems they came to DC, opened up Raven Rock, got their hand on all that new tech. Came across project p and said to themselves "lets see who this plays out."

Why the Devs of Black Isle were not going to bring back the Enclave is became they could simply move to another location and do it agian!

That's how it seems. Yes. I think the Enclave, and the Super Mutants, both, should've been rare encounters that only happen in certain areas, or with small chances in lower level areas, and without being scaled down. And neither should've been a part of the MQ --- at least not as a default choice of enemy.

They had gone through a chapter in the franchise history, there was no need to bring them back - as there was really no need to bring them back in Fallout 3, although - with the current being - the changes in gameplay demanded some rocognition to the roots of the series.

Fallout 3 did have some recognition to the series. It has the brotherhood which was in all three Fallout games up till Fallout 3. Enclave were only in Fallout 2. Then and what they did to poor Harold :sadvaultboy:

It had some I agree, but I'd also say that it picked the recognition quite sloppily (imo). And ultimately, the only thing it really has is a list on names and a mascot. :shrug:
The next iteration will likely have even less common with the series roots, if Skyrim, Fallout 3 and Beth's general style are to be looked. :cryvaultboy:

It had some I agree, but I'd also say that it picked the recognition quite sloppily (imo). And ultimately, the only thing it really has is a list on names and a mascot. :shrug:
The next iteration will likely have even less common with the series roots, if Skyrim, Fallout 3 and Beth's general style are to be looked. :cryvaultboy:

Actually it doesn't the door explodes coupled with an Enclave trooper falling to the ground dead if I remember correctly. There is blame on Eden, again, if Eden was a good leader then they wouldn't have betrayed him; I refuse to believe that it was a minority of people, everyone in the Mess Hall, Cells, Tech and Bio Labs, Quarters, Storage and all of the corridors in between just happened to be Autumnists? Are you honestly saying that on that one day, all of the duty rosters happened to line up so that everyone who happened to be in the LW's way was a triaitorous Autumnist? Even those off-duty and grabbing something to eat? It's madness.

So some men are apparently fanatical to the President whom controls everything (btw, some of them who shout for the President are those in the room immediately outside of Autumn's in the Jefferson Memorial) and yet Autumn has a hypontic affect on people which just turns them into "yes-men", how do these "yes-men" come about? Through people seeing through Eden's [censored]; besides if the President can see everything through the camera's on the walls then he would know who to shoot, invalidating your earlier point. You also think that some would be more loyal to their Colonel than to their Commander in Chief, "Men disobey the President!" "Well, Autumn is in charge after all, Viva La Revolucion!"

I see no reason to believe that there were a minority of Enclave forces. Eden abused some loophole and reigned for thirty years, that is undefensable; like the legitimacy of the Enclave, yeah, it could technically be legal but that doesn't mean that it is justifyable.

True. But the means and implementation suggest he is. Spoiling just the Potomac (is the river name correct) and the setting being merely a plot around it....

While its true that they may not have been a small minority I still firmly believe that they were indeed in the minority. In all the areas you mentioned, there are eight-beds in sight, what that then tells me is that we have not yet seen a vast portion of Raven Rock (Raven Rock in real life has the capacity to hold nearly 3,000 with little problem). Its possible that simply the area that the LW was housed in was filled with a high concentration of Autumnist supporters, this is after all where Autumn has his own quarters (and before you say anything about Eden being in the same area as well , Eden can't exactly move, and its likely that Autumn wanted as many men loyal to him as possible around him with Eden close).

Its also a possiblity that those loyal to Eden simply stayed out of the way, they steared clear of the fighting.

This of course, all becomes very confusing when we consider the fact that Autumn still believes he is being loyal to Eden, and many of his men may feel the same way. For whatever reason, Autumn feels that by countermanding Eden, he is in fact serving Eden loyally (perhaps he feels that even though he disobyed him, he is doing the right thing for the President in the long run).

Also in regards to the wall camera's, perhaps he was using that to tell which men to shoot?

You cannot deny though, that Eden is not wrong is his feelings about the craziness of Autumn's "lets hug the wastelanders" plan.

I think it was justifyable considering that there wasn't really anyone fit to take over the presidency from Eden, there was not a single non-miliitary personel or official that I could see. Eden is trying to work with a shattered, nay an obliterated, United States government. Congress has been killed and with it the entire legislative branch wiped out, the judicial branch also gone, and the executive branch is effectively reduced to the office of the President. I see nothing short of a quasi-dictatorship via emergency powers as being able to keep the United States government alive.

Tbh Bethesda done a decent job on the whole and i'm not trying to svck up theres but i don't want a huge war about Bethesda's fallout v the originals.

I fear for Fallouts future. Hopefully they learn from New Vegas. First thing they need to do is get writers that at least graduated from kindergarten. Keep the improvements of New Vegas: hardcoe mode, reputation systems and Damage threshold and traits to name a few. Focus on RPG and not FPS, make the game less "good vs evil," stop having almost very quest black or white and I am hoping some their sits down and plays Fallout, Fallout 2 and Tactics and implements the levelling system, character creation, lock picking and so on from them. So we can go higher then 100 in skill and levelling takes greater and greater amounts of XP everytime.

I would argue against that considering that the end slides of Fallout 3 suggest a total Enclave victory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwE7H4p1Whs If you cathc my drift. :cryvaultboy:

Look old sport, at the end of the day the writing is on the wall; Autumn gained enough support to pressure Eden into allowing him to go through with the purifier take-over, whatever Eden's actual intention, I still believe that it would be logical to assume that some were fed up of Eden, for whatever reason, and therefore the root of the problem was Eden.

I'll say one thing for Eden, Autumn he most certainly was not .

What I mean is he would have been able to see Autumn's confidants, he saw everything in the base, something which I have thought about in preparation for my fiction.

well I would say that Eden had something to do with that; makes sense reallly, enforcing his dictatorship because nobody can legally replace him.

Civilian personnel were still present obviously, we didn't see much of Raven Rock. Besides the scientists. I do think that an election could have been held, if your telling me that in the decades they've been there that everyone is a soldier...

Do those refer to anything but the CW, though? And if they did, what would be the sense in that? Spoiling the Potomac killing everyone in the whole country?

4. I think the virus plan was more dangerous and would have purified an area larger than we assume. Its possible (and im just winging it here) that when the virus was released into the water supply via the purifer (maybe there is something with the purifer that magnifies the viruses killing range/power, after all it uses a GECK, which Bethedsa made into almost a god-in-a-case) that a combination of evaporation/water cycle/atmospheric winds would have meant the virus entered into the atmosphere and poisoned a good sized portion of the east coast. And if the virus was able to enter and contaimate a part of the Atlantic Ocean (closest to DC) via the potomac, then prehaps something would have happend with that as well (evaporation, entrance in atmposphere). Whatever the case, when you put the virus into the purifier, it says the Enclave "wins" on the East coast, that the Encalve was now allowed to thrive, which means Edens plan was a success.