Verbal debates with the thu'um often end up in injury/death, and proving dominance over the opponent, or frying some disobedient nords

Well not if it's dragon vs. dragon i don't think there are any injuries

I'm curious as to what in the hell the grey beards even considered as true need if Arngeir was reluctant to help us defeat Alduin.

Hmm, i'll give you that, perhaps a temporary death? It's certainly not for benevolent use though!

Also I'm going to pull the bull on kyne "giving the gift of the voice" she didn't give any gift she taught them how to use it, the voice is just magic and magic is the most natural thing on Tamriel so the voice is literally just putting magic into words we also have other types of voice magic i.e. the Redguard's sword singing and the Tsaesci kiai. Also there were dragon priests who knew how to use the thu'um before the dragon wars where Kyne gave the mortals the "gift" of the voice to fight the dragons.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sword-singer

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky

Granted there isn't much lore on the Kiai but from the description in children of the sky we can guess it is like the Voice.

You can gank their leader and they do nothing but frown at you, so.. I don't think they have a 'true need'. At least not anymore.

The point isnt if she really did this or not, its the hole in Jurgen's philosophy in conjunction with Nordic belief.

I'd be even so bold as to say she in reality had nothing to do with it.

LOL - I thought I was the only one.

This is Tamriel, gods are always interacting with mortals, so I don't see it as being outlandish to say that Kyne actually did tell Jurgen they the nords were abusing the voice and the only way to make up for it was to use the voice as a means of meditation especially since the divines were more active with mortals in the first era.

Except that he tells you otherwise: try telling him that you'll try to follow the Way of the Voice. He'll tell you that Akatosh gave you the Voice for a reason, and that using it in pursuit of your destiny is following the Way.

Pretty much my view on it. The Way of the Voice is an insult.

He looks like he could be Ulfrics younger brother.

He says this at first. Talk to him later. He sings a different tune altogether. The other greybeards have to put him in check if you pick the appropriate dialogue.

I think it's just that he doesn't want the LDB to learn dragonrend out of fear that the pure hatred in the words would end up corrupting the LDB.

Jurgen doesn't even say this. Lore says he figured it out on his own after meditating.

If I could speak to him in Sovngarde and he told me about his way of the voice, I would have told him to "Go thu'um yourself."

True, but he does say later maybe it is the will of the gods for this to happen (Even though this is possible, still). Not quite the same as saying we wont fight, but it shows their mindset.

Utter rubbish.

I agree, magic can't have hatred in it nor can it be evil or corrupting.

Magic is a tool - pure and simple.

Indeed. Magic is a force, bereft of such things.

Though I suppose Arkay may disagree with Mannimarco and the Ideal Masters on Necromancy.

Arngeir says that he came to the conclusion on his own after meditating on what the defeat might mean for 7 years or something and he is the only source on this I know about.

I say if the Tongues decided to follow the one with the strongest Voice, and as a result sit on a mountaintop their entire lives achieving mastery over the Thu'um like no other, that's their business. If Kyne, Paarthurnax, or any other dragon doesn't want to teach anyone else how to use the Thu'um, that's not the Greybeards' problem.

exactly, though Tiber Septim supposedly created a college of the voice in Markarth though it seems to not have gone well.

If they were the best tongues of that time, then they set an example and abandoned teaching the thu'um as a war art. So yes they did, in effect. The rest of the Nords followed suit and no doubt that prepared the way for them to give up their own culture to the imperials.

Kyne was a war goddess. She would have told Jurgen to shut his trap, lick his wounds and get ready for the next battle.

Link is empty, what did you mean to say?

I dunno what happened there; I was linking to the sacred trials of Kyne.