Oh yeah, I hate that quest line. lol Mainly for being the only thing in all of TESV that even refers to the Nords' belief in the old gods, and all it does is send you to fight a mystic mudcrab or two. What a joke.

I thought the mudcrab & mammoth were cool at least

A skeever though? Come on...

I'd suggest Mara counts as well buuuuuuuut, Mara's the same everywhere you go, so it doesn't matter.

If only the Nords had listened to Wulfharth back in the day.

I did that mission once and never bothered with it again.

He can do what he wants. He's not dragonborn, therefor his use of the Thu'um is his own business and he's not required to do anything. If he wants to use the Thu'um for meditation, that's fine. The Greybeard's have been a good thing for the world.

Mara in her place is fine. She's supposed to be Kyne's handmaiden, but it seems the roles got reversed. But yeah mainly I'm lamenting the lack of cultural distinctiveness, not to mention the 4th Era Nords being such wusses.

Although I will say, even in Shor Son of Shor, Kyne is not presented as a berserker, more as one who takes a thoughtful approach to battle. So I don't actually mind her shout being one that dominates animals. It allows the warrior to choose the time and place of battle, which is fitting for a war goddess too.

Easter Egg, knowledge imparted from the grave. Who knows? If he was Dragonborn don't you think the Greybeard's would know?

He is always referred to as a Tongue. Plus Arngeir say the Dragonborn is an exception to all their rules. If that was the case, I don't think Jurgen would have sought serenity.

I'm personally more interested in the Daedric script on his coffin.

I think its the same as the greybeards giving us knowledge. It only gives us a dragonsoul IMO because that was easier for beth since you may not have a shout to unlock when you got to return the horn. How else could he be in Sovngarde?

On the flip side, it could be that when we take a dragonsoul, you take its energy but not its consciousness like with a soul trapped in a soul gem that still goes to the Soul Cairn after it's energy is burned. And maybe we only get a piece of its consciousness for the knowledge. That would explain why we gain the understanding of only one shout and not all since the dragon would understand every word.

It is typical of mortals to assume they know everything of those whom are deities that surpass the mortal concept. Kyne and Kynareth are separate yet they are one and the same. Do not attempt such a broad definition of her. Nor should any of us attempt to dictate what she truly intended.

The Greybeards are wise to fear the power they wield. In the old days, even the most proficient Draconic speakers amongst the Priesthood were wary of the Thu'um. The Thu'um was reserved for the High Priests and renowned Warriors who showed exemplary discipline. It was not to be treated like some club to whack someone over the head with.

RP off yo. We're obviously talking about the Nordic aspect.

Why should the use of the thu'um be any different for a dragonborn?

I don't really have anything against individual tongues deciding to be conscientious objectors. But since they were war leaders and probably some of them were chieftains, they had a responsibility to defend their people, at the very least to pass on their knowledge to those who would. The negative effects of their irresponsibility didn't come back on them because Tiber Septim flouted their rules. Now, there are no Septims around to save them and their descendants are reaping the effects as they face the Dominion.

Although it probably did work out well enough up to now, because if the Nords had continued to challenge the Tribunal, that would not have gone well for either side.

And? My point remains. It is foolish to dictate what a deity has intended. Especially one that serves as "Shield-Maiden" to one of the most controversial, chaotic, and schizophrenic deities to exist.

Furthermore, the way some of you are describing her, I would think she was the Shield-Maiden of Mehrunes Dagon, or even Molag Bal. The Thu'um causes Destruction. It changes people and the environment around them. It is a tool to be used for revolution. It can fuel ambitious desires and influences one's pride. The Thu'um can also be used to dominate, and suppress. An act for which Jurgen was guilty of. An act that Kyne punished him for. An act in which he understood the destructive force of the voice, and how it could destroy even he who wields it.

I suppose the Nords should take advice from a skeevy lich who got his ass kicked by the machinations of same said goddess. The dragon cult got what was coming to them for choosing Alduin over Shor.

Why? Because it's inherent to them. Arngeir says the Dragonborn are the exception for all the rules.

I don't see it as irresponsibility at all. Jurgen pondered the loss for a long time. We can't truly say if anybody would have been better off if he didn't found the Greybeards. The Greybeard's have taken the Last Dragonborn and Tiber Septim under their wing. They've been an important piece. Obviously the Voice should be used for war when needed (duh Dragon Wars) but I don't see anything wrong at all with saying that there should be limits at times.

I fail to see how it is foolish to be honest. She has a consciousness like anything else. She either approves of the use of the thu'um or she doesn't. Its only pointless now because she'd be altered by the new way she is seen. We're talking about Kyne back then, however.

The Greybeards are somewhat like the corrupted dragon cult, that's true. Hoarding the power of the thu'um for their own purposes and teaching it only to those who dance to their tune.

Its the same debate people are having about nuclear weapons and whether we should get rid of ours or not.

Uh what's the title gotta do with the opening statement?

His defeat was merely a delay. Alduin will fulfill his role, his destiny. Traitorous Paarthurnax and those whom served him will be punished. Clearly Shor has done so much for the nords of today. They live on misguided principles whose origins surpass them by several eras. Principles that have been twisted over the course of several eras. They worship a man as a God. And now they are answering for their God's crimes. Now look upon the Nords of today. They are but a shadow of what they once were. The mighty Draugr are but a testament to that.

No? The Way of the Voice does not teach that you should never use the Thu'um for battle.

It was changed. Replace Hero with a word that means wimp.

That isn't what that quote says at all.

Arngeir is free to have that opinion. No dragonborn is obligated to follow it. He even says as much.

Well that's the thing. They defined "great need" so narrowly that they abdicated any responsibility at all. Of course it's not only their fault. Tiber Septim's college failed because the Nords decided they wanted a life of privilege and ease rather than courage and discipline.

Well... kind of.. not really. No Thu'um is strong enough to ruin the planet in the same way.. but I understand what you mean. The Greybeard's are a very secluded and small group. It's not a horrible thing that a handful of monks do their own thang.

Except this is clearly false. The Dragonborn is unbound.

Can you imagine if every nord could Thu'um? There would be no need for my Lord Alduin to exist. The barbaric Nords would simply destroy Nirn themselves over a drunken stupor.