If she knows so much about it, why isn't she using a one-second bound dagger spell?

If you go far enough back in history, kings and generals did in fact fight in the front ranks of their armies. Alexander is one example, Epaminondas of Thebes another. Of course the downside of this is that they gave up any hope of controlling the battle. They made a plan with their lieutenants beforehand, then went off to fight and did their best to make it work. The other downside of this is that when they get themselves killed, the war is over, even if their troops go on to win the battle without them. Epaminondas is a good example of this. Thebes went from being the power in Greece, to being nobody, becuase he got himself killed while defeating the Spartans. Alexander too, suffered numerous wounds from slugging it out alongside the rest of the cavalry. He was nearly killed in a siege in India, and his army actually thought he was dead, as he went down in front of their eyes. The toll of those wounds doubtlessly contributed to his early death. As the saying went, death was life's way of telling Alexander to slow down.

This all changed by the time of Hannibal (just a century after Alexander) whom we see not fighting personally, but leading and coordinating his army from the back of his elephant. Likewise with Caesar. Interesting thing about him is that when his army was ambushed at Sabis, he actually joined in the fighting twice, and each time his men pushed him back from the front line so he would not get killed. Still, even leaders as recent as George Washington were known to put themselves conspicuously near the front where their soldiers could see them. They were not fighting themselves, just getting a look at what was going on up close, and of course inspiring their men (it is good for morale after all). Washington had several horses killed from under him, two at Monmouth alone, and often found bullet holes in his uniform. But he was never wounded. During the Confederate bombardment before Pickett's Charge, General Hancock (who led one corps of the Union army) rode up and down the Union lines to exhort his men to be brave. When his aides told him to take cover, he said: "There are times when a corps commander's life does not count." He was severely wounded shortly thereafter.

So there is IRL historical precedent for Martin to be on battlefield. Whether or not in the front lines and fighting personally is a matter of opinion. IRL, in 330 BCE he would be a coward if he was not hacking bad guys with a sword. In 57 BCE he'd be a fool if he was. Of course one of the problems with Oblivion is that it is like so many Hollywood movies, which show pitched battles as these wild, confused melees with both sides all mixed up in a jambalaya stew. In reality battles were fought in dense formations of soldiers, literally standing shoulder to shoulder in a line that could go on for over a mile, with men 8-12 ranks deep. It was all about who could break the other side's line or turn their flank, becuase once an army lost its cohesion, it lost the battle. So realistically Martin could have been in the battle, but never been near the actual fighting (except of course for arrows or ranged magic). Of course the game does not give that option.

My own take on it is http://chorrol.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=4431&view=findpost&p=115393 of my fan fic. I treated the Battle of Bruma as a huge affair, with an army of something like 20,000 Imperials vs. twice that in Daedra. In the Teresa fic, the Empire pulled out all the stops. The entire Fighters Guild was there. Every battlemage and healer from the Mages Guild as well. Legions were recalled from Morrowind and Skyrim to take part, their shields all painted with the black wolf of Kvatch. Plus every militiaman, mercenary, and farmer who could hold a spear was pushed into the battle. Likewise every knight in Cyrodiil, plus mercenary light horseman from Hammerfell (think Numidian/Arab Cavalry). The professional troops were put out in front. The militia, mercs and others were used as a reserve. The Fighters Guild was with the latter, as while being pros, they were not trained to fight enmasse, but as individuals. The Mages Guild likewise acted in a support role, a combination of ranged fighters and healers. The FG also had one very important task, along with the Blades. But you will have to read the chapter to find out what.

In my tale, Martin was there on the battlefield as well. But he did not direct the battle, as he was no soldier, and knew nothing about armies and warfare. He left that to Adamus Phillida. Martin was there to lend his charisma to the morale of the soldiers, and make himself a very visible figure for the troops to rally around. He wanted everyone to see that the new Emperor stood with them, and would not take a step back. Phillida himself led from the rear, and we see him actually controlling the events on the battlefield, like a master playing chess.

Epic. I could see all that you described in my head. Props for a great visual.

One of the things Bethesda did well in regards to the main quest, in my opinion, was shroud Martin in a bit of mystery. We know very little about his past. He hints at certain dark events from time to time but these events are never revealed to us. So Martin may have been very well trained in the arts of war, for all we know.

And SubRosa: your post gets my vote for "Bethesda Softworks Forums Post Of The Week."

Wow. Yea, you know your [censored], SubRosa. I wish I paid more attention in HIstory class

That makes two of us!

Yea, he's always just been in a blue robe carrying a daggar in my game(s). I've gotten to this battle at least twice during the Main Quest, and this is how he is.

But see, I do a minors for Majors pretend mod, which makes my games level up slower. In both cases, my characters were somewhere around Level 7 or 8 when I did this portion of the MQ. Maybe Martin steps up his game at higher levels

He should be in his Imperial Dragon armor for the battle, regardless of your level. His not wearing it is a bug that can happen in the Miscarcand quest. If you get the Great Welkynd stone ahead of the quest, and have it in your inventory at the same time you have the Armor of Tiber Septim and talk to Martin, he will not put his armor on.

That's exactly what it is, then, that bug, because I know for a FACT i always get the GWS first. finding Miscarcand is so easy. So in both The Grey Wizard and Igodah Go^Pe's games, I've wound up getting the stone before the MQ even starts. CAn't help myself!

You are [censored] brilliant by the way, SubRosa. I read your mega-post over again just now. [censored] brilliant

All I did was look it up in the wiki...

Btw, I learned very little history in school. Very little that was useful or accurate at least. Most of what is foisted off on people there is the propaganda of whatever state or country you happen to live in. For example, I was taught that the Boston Massacre was caused by evil British soldiers who ruthlessly attacked Americans because, well, the British were evil then. The reality is that it was the Brits who were attacked by an American mob, and things got out of hand, a soldier went down from rock thrown into his head, and the shooting started. A Patriot lawyer even got them acquitted in an American court (do you think the U.S. Army would allow an Iraqi court to try American servicemen accused of doing the same?). I imagine that kids today are being taught how Chuck Norris once beat up Jesus, or how he was born in a long cabin that he built with his own two hands.

I learned it all on my own, by reading books. I highly recommend authors like Peter Connolly and Victor Davis Hanson. Not to mention the original sources like Thucydides, Caesar, etc... But the important thing to remember whenever you read history, is to ask yourself what the agenda of the writer is. Everyone has one. Think about that while you read, and draw your own conclusions. Take Caesar for example. His commentaries on the Gallic Wars were written as it happened, and published in Rome while he was still on campaign. While most of what he describes is doubtlessly accurate, it is from his point of view. It is also clearly a massive piece of P.R. meant to keep him and his cronies popular in the capital, not to mention justify his actions. I imagine that Vercingetorix would tell the story differently. Thucydides tends to be critical of Athens in his history of the Peloponnesian War. But he was also an exiled Athenian...

Funny thing is, the same reason I got interested in reading history and biographies is what got me into reading sci-fi and fantasy, and playing RPGs (back in the old days when we did it with pencils and paper in someone's basemant). I wanted to escape the confines of the real world, at least for a little while, and take myself to a different place. In many ways the Classical world is more alien to modern America then Tatooine, Gondor, or Tamriel. I have spent many hours enjoying myself in all three of the latter places, and many others.

You didn't look that up on Wiki! NOoo! I was actually very good in History class, pretty much B's and A's. Math was actually my fail back in those days. Problem is, my memory isn't all that good. I have a friend up in New Jersey, he's the one who introduced me and my brother to TFT (similar to DnD). And he's actually quite good with historical facts, wars, campaigns. He used to set up battlefields back in the day...there were games where you could simulate the American Civil war or whatever. I never got into this stuff personally (I prefer the medieval fantasy settings) but it's good to have you around, so I don't have to call him.


Hey Vyper, it's not about defeating your opinion. This isn't a flame war as is so typical in the Sky and ES forums. I've been merely trying to fill in the plot gaps as best I can, the way I see them.

But looking back to the lack of Mage's Guild help, I actually did start to over-anolyze a bit myself, and I've come to this conclusion. The Mage's Guild (especially Bruma's MG) is simply too dysfunctional. They're always playing pranks on one another, their leader is a joke, I just don't see them as being very serious. I wouldn't want these idiots on the battlefield.

@SubRosa: You continually make reference to "Ceasar". In your last post it was clear that you meant Julius Ceasar, however in your previous post it was not so clear. I make this point because as you undoubtedly know all Emperors starting with Octavian, who took the name of Augustus when he assumed the throne after Julius, were all named Ceasar. The word Ceasar became not so much a name but a title meaning Emperor. The Russsian Tsars continued the tradition; Tsar meaning Ceasar in Russian.

I think you and I share some of the same interests. School piqued my curiosity in the matter of history but I learned all i know from my own readings much as you did. I am especially interested in WW2, as my preference, and I find that whenever one looks at history it is almost MORE important to read from sources on the losing side. unfortunately with antiquity and medieval history the losers never had a chance to give their side of the story. Its funny to think that some things that we take for hard solid truth may be nothing more but a distorted version of a megalomaniacal conqueror. Who knows?

cheers

True enough, but "Gaius Julius Caesar" was actually the guy's name, it was later adopted as a title.

yes I know.

I should have made that more clear.

I'll save a bit of time by quoting myself from a very recent thread on this same subject.


As to history, I too consider myself something of a buff. In fact it was my interest of ancient (pre industrial age) history that led to my love of the old myths and legends which led to my love of modern fantasy literature which led to my fascination with computerized role-playing games, which eventually saw me in Cyrodiil.

-Decrepit-

Oh, I know. I never felt flamed at all, so no worries. I like it when people point out flaws in my thinking. You, Ghastley and Glargg did a wonderful job of it, so thank you.
And SubRosa's über post was great.

Lol, I don't think 'dysfunctional' covers it. J'Skar is quite the prankster, but who can blame him? He is a cat, after all. Jeanne, on the other hand... What supremely deluded individual thought it would be a good idea to put her in charge of anything? Sheogorath?

Good point. Maybe they should be sent to help the enemy.