Well I've never got this far before on MQ and really enjoyed it, was real nervous at first, didnt know what to expect. Everyone running into battle. I had all the allies so was real difficult, I think everyone on our side that died was at my hands as everyone started attacking me! Shouting murder ! Murder! Can't imagine doing this with an archer or a Mage! Kudos for whoever has! Was absolute mayhem.

Good fun!

A pure archer would be an interesting problem there. Then again, it's pretty hard to play a pure archer anyway.

Mages have pretty good crowd control spells; just convert some of the enemy over to your side.

Doing it with an archer is difficult, but not impossible. Get a good vantage point, have lots of nasty poisons and shoot the buggers as soon as they exit the gates. Since it takes them a couple of seconds to get their bearings (i.e. for their AI to kick in), you can usually hit all of them before they begin to attack. With heavy poisons running through their systems and multiple soldiers attacking them, they don't last very long. But, it gets harder to get a decent shot the longer the battle continues.

I thought that scene where the defenders of Bruma march out of the city while the townsfolk of Bruma line up to cheer was without a doubt the most dramatic, exciting moment I've ever experienced in an Elder Scrolls main quest. For a couple of minutes I felt like I was smack in the middle of a pretty thrilling movie.

I've only done the main quest once, but I still remember the chaos of that battle. I seem to recall that Martin died on me at least once and I had to reload. It probably didn't help that I hadn't gathered all of the allies I might have. So I'm guessing I was probably fighting with a smaller force than most other players. I appointed my character as his bodyguard and positioned her right next to Martin and fought off any Daedra that attacked him.

There was no walkthrough for the game at that time, so I didn't know all the little tricks players use nowadays to beat that encounter. But that's part of what makes battles like this fun: figuring out strategy, overcoming obstacles, ect. If I'd been able to breeze through it without breaking a sweat I would not remember the first thing about that battle today.

Yeah the townspeople lined up was pretty cool, then listening to the speech like something out of braveheart lol I genuinely was nervous as I had never looked it up as I didn't want to spoil it and didn't know what to expect.
I don't know if it's a good thing having all the allies, as it just becomes so confusing and the first person doesn't help, but was a necessity as third person was more prone to hitting allies as they just keep running right in front of you and with the sword I have if they are not full health, two hits and their dead.

Here's a thing lol you had guards there, blades, my character and i noticed amongst the kerfuffle a female argonian in a green dress with no weapon punching daedra to death with her fists! I lol'ed didn't get a chance to see who it was, maybe she was in the area and saw the battle and thought what the heck, let's go beat up some daedra!

This quest was rather awesome, I played it with a two hander Orc, We did it with no casualties...well almost, as I was about to strike a Deadra a guard gets in my way, I then get arrested.

Ugh, it seems any time I do a battle with "allies" they always get in the way of my attacks/spells. Especially the siege of Kvatch, and that one Mage's guild reccomendation quest, Cheydinhal I think. With the rogue Battlemage. Even during the Kvatch Oblivion gate, I push Ilend into the lava half the time, just so he wont get in my way.

There seems to be a lot of comparison and criticism of Oblivion for poor quest writing, and acting when compared with Skyrim. Lots of discussion about impact of your actions upon the greater game world. I don't get the criticism, and this quest is just one of the reasons. It was one of the best written and acted quests I have experienced in any game. I only have 200 hrs in Skyrim thus far, but nothing compares in my opinion. Many consider the closure of all the Oblivion gates to be a grind (based upon a valid criticism of similar layouts), but there is no more rewarding feeling than the buildup of all of those guards assembling from across the lands, based soley upon your decision and actions to close their gates. A very awesome and memorable quest for me personally. And yes, quite a strategic challenge trying to protect Martin and keep as many of your allies alive as possible.

Possible mild spoiler;
I almost always strike or kill an ally during that battle, (and the battle for Kavatch) so I save just before it starts. I learned I can't stay in the thick of action but instead run in front of the gates and kill what comes through. In the last batle of the main quest, I recently got a infamy mark and a murder, but have no idea who I killed. Must have been someone important. Martin gave me dirty looks so I went back and re-did it.

This is very true. That moment really had me nervous, but I couldn't help but appreciate all the NPCs cheering my character on!

Leaving Kvatch was also an awesome moment. Everyone really taking the time to let my characters know how grateful they are.


... I love moments like this one

*uses Bill Lumbergh voice* Umm...yeah, I'm gonna have go and...disagree with you on that. *switches back to normal voice* The Defense of Bruma was filled with a number of plot holes.

Here's a few *beware of spoilers*:

Your points are valid, and I actually like Bill Lumberg. Office space is one of my favorite movies. There arent many games that I couldnt pick apart based upon the details. I find Skyrim in particular, no better or worse in this regard. Given this imperfection as it relates to most fantasy rpg's, the premise and result of the quest remain among the most memorable for me personally, when framed within that context. And, a statue.... please. However, flaws acknowledged.

Um...SPOILERS BELOW



I don't see a problem here, story wise. He's just not very bright, perhaps, as well as a little too gung-ho to be part of the action.

If Martin did not enter this battle, equally valid points could be made storywise against him for cowering off instead of trying to join in and save his world.


Somebody has to guard the fort, though, at all times. That's the way I see this. When a country goes to battle, from what I understand not everybody is actually part of the battle. Some get left behind as a defensive measure. Right? Maybe they simply wanted to make sure they didnt' come back to a Cloud Ruler Temple filled with daedra.



Now THIS I totally agree on. Those frickin' good for nothing FG members! All they do is stand around! Creeps.

But you have to also remember TES: IV can only handle a certain amount of NPCs per screen. Add too many, and the game could potentially crash. Right? But i would agree that perhaps a couple less soldiers could be removed so maybe a couple FG members could join in.



Probably because it's assumed this Mage's Guild is gonna be gone, anyways.



To get the siege engine thingie rolling? Maybe they thought it would be easier to manuver once it was crawling about, so the daedra could now focus on a weak spot in Bruma's city walls. I don't see this as a "hole in the plot" or whatever at all.



System limitations, once again, only so many NPC's can really be on-screen before our consoles crash (PS3 and Xbox users) If you're on PC, you can probably correct this easily, right modders?



....Or some sort of stronger boss(es). I agree with you here to some extent. But maybe Mehrunes Dagon simply thought he had all his bases covered.

This falls under the category of "bad decision" more than it falls under the category of "bad storywriting".

Thanks and have a good one.

I agree that the quest is very fun, despite the flaws. And Statues are cool.

You're thinking in Earth terms, though. Generals, kings, presidents (whatever) are not on the front lines. But perhaps they do things differently on Nirn. I'm almost certain about reading some of Tamriel's books where they mention the leaders joining in. SubRosa? Help?

...And it's also possible that in the entire history of battles on Earth, occasionally there were leaders who joined in the battle for whatever reason. I'm not an expert historian. SubRosa? Where are you on this one?



Yea, I guess. I mean, but it seems any way this gets explained could equally wind up getting criticized. The FG hardly EVER do anything to help, ever, though. I would personally love to see them actually participating more often outside their stupid guilds.



I see.. ....this stuff never bothered me personally, but I could see how it could be an issue if you're actually looking way deep in the game. I'm satisfied by my thoughts on this one, though.


Yea, you got a point. There's something about watching this huge siege engine crawl slowly towards the town from a distance, though, that I can imagine would really creep its residents out!

Think of it this way: they decided to put the siege engine further away for effect.



The player has not dealt officially with the siege engine and the tower area, though. Mehrunes is now sitting back slyly going "okay...you think you're bad, look at THIS".

No, he's still satisfied he's made the right decisions, here, IMO. Like Custer's Last Stand, where it looks as if the cowboys are gonna slaughter their opponents, Mehrunes made a bad decision.

Yeah you make good points specially Martin rushing in with just a crappy dagger!
But you can't over anolyse it, if you did this with other games I'm sure you'd find just as many plot holes. And I think most of your points could be solved if the game had a better engine and allowed more enemies in one area. My game slowed down a bit during the battle on xbox.

Where's Thomas Kaira? If anybody is good at sussing up plot holes, it's him.

Martin and Countess Carvain both point out that it's all or nothing from here on. If Martin doesn't take the risk in person, he'll end up just as dead. If I were him, I'd rather take part in my own last stand, especially if I think it improves our chance of winning.

Fighters Guild members are loners, don't do so well as a group or they'd be in the Legion. Mages aren't all batllemages, or they'd be in the Legion. All the allies you gather are trained to fight together with others.

The other three ingredients for the gate to Camoran's Paradise are at Cloud Ruler Temple. Gaining the fourth, only to lose the first three, would be too stupid, so the Blades are left to guard those.

The Mythic Dawn opened the first gate right outside the city, and it got closed again. So their second attempt was further away, but with a direct road into town.

The Daedra pretty much all went after Martin, which is why they weren't inside the Gate when you went in. After all, when he dies, the game ends. If they used defensive tactics instead, then most if not all of the army you gathered would be entering the gate with you. The defense should have been adequate against a solo attempt, especially with the time constraint.

True. I'd feel weird just hiding off somewhere, too. Although if it was ME actually choosing to join the fight, I'd want to show up in more than a robe, carrying a daggar. And I'd want healing potions. Lots and lots of healing potions.


It's literally less than a half mile walk though. This battle could be the Fighter's Guild's big chance to shine, really prove themselves. The Vyper made a good point with this one...if I were in the Fighter's Guild, trained to fight, I would definitely get my ass over to that battlefield and at least try to help.


All good points.

A further point on Mehrunes' tactics: He opened the smaller gates first, and sent his armies through them, in order to hold the ground for sufficient time to get the big siege engine gate open. He wouldn't see the need to accompany that crawler with large numbers of troops, since it was more than capable of defending itself.

1. I can understand rulers taking part in the battle, and even leading the charge, but usually they're trained in the arts of war. Martin...not so much. He may have a decent suit of armor, but he needs a better weapon than a frosty dagger. Being a priest of Akatosh, it is possible that he actually has some decent skills with a blade.

2. Yeah, the FG really needs to step up a bit. Maglir really gives them a bad name.

3. It bothers me a bit, but I have a tendency to (over)think long and hard on matters that few people bother with. TBH, I doubt the Devs would have had time to deal with any of these points if they'd thought of them.

4. Hmm...effect...yes. Yes! Seeing that huge monstrosity lumber inevitably towards the city would be terrifying and demoralizing. That, coupled with the knowledge of how fast Kvatch fell, would make Dagon's victory there extremely easy. Good thinking!

5. Another good point: The arrogance of power.

That's one of my (many) flaws: I tend to over-anolyze quite a few things.


1. "All or nothing" doesn't have to mean "rush to attack the hoards of Oblivion while wielding a small, weak dagger that can give you a chill".

2. So send the FG members into the lesser gates as they open (either alone or in pairs) to fight a delaying action against the daedra. When they start getting pressed hard, have them pull out and let the soldiers deal with the remaining daedra as they exit the gate. When that's done, send the FG members back in. Rinse, lather, repeat.

As for the mages, they don't have to fight in order to help in the battle: J'Skar could cast chameleon spells on the defenders (and FG gate fighters) while Volanaro gives them detect life spells so they can still see each other. Jeanne Frasoric could summon some allies to help, while Selena Orania passes out healing potions to injured fighters and poisons for them to put on their weapons. No combat necessary, just assistance that could greatly tip the scales in favor of the defenders.

3. Very good point. I surrender on that one.

4. Another good point. Add to that the reasons Rene Gade provided and you have a very solid reason for that location. Again, I concede defeat here.

5. Yet another argument for having him direct the battle from the rear, as opposed to attacking the hoards of Oblivion while wielding a small, weak dagger that can give you a chill. And while the siege crawler doesn't need defending, the sigil tower certainly does. If one person can get past the crawler, climb to the top of the tower, take the blarny stone and pulverize the crawler by collapsing the gate, somethin' ain't right. The guy in charge is way too overconfident. But, that's good news for the defenders!

Yeah, she can summon a scamp for...what?...almost five seconds!

Hey, if it distracts even one daedra for a fraction of a second, that could be enough to help one defender win against it. This, of course, assumes Jeanne can remember how to summon it when the time comes...

I once wasted several precious minutes re-summoning a daedroth every time she summoned her scamp. I'm easily amused.

Some of this makes me think we're not playing the same game. In mine, Martin is clad in Dragon Armor and wielding a longsword. There's a known bug that has him turn out in a robe with a dagger, but that's avoidable so it doesn't happen for me. However, I've had a "Bruma militia" member turn up in civvies and bare-handed and still survive, so maybe that strategy gets you ignored by the Daedra and I should let him do it!

Again, when I do this, the Mages guild has already been wiped out by the Necromancers, which brings up another point. If one necromancer and a few (summoned?) wraiths can defeat them, are they much use? (Edit: forgot that Mannimarco was there too, so maybe they're not such wimps).

And @glargg: If Jeanne is using a short-duration weak spell for practice, maybe she knows more about the game than you think.