Just finished MQ and need some more insight.

DONT read on if you havn't finished MQ yet.




Is it true what Mankar Camoran says, that Tamriel (Dawn's Beauty) is another daedric realm, Lorkan's Realm. So Lorkan lost his power as a daedric god to his own realm by mortals worshiping false gods? (The Nine Divines)
If this is true what is Akatosh (a "false" god) doing in Tameriel at the end of mq?

How did Martin bring about Akatosh? Did he simply release Some power from the Amulet of Kings? or somehow transformed into Akatosh?

Don't quote me on ANY of this, this is my understanding.

Tamriel is not a daedric realm- Lorkhan sacrificed himself so Nirn (where Tamriel is located. Tamriel is a continent.) could be created, his heart is/was in Vvardenfel, and his body is the two moons, masser and secunda i think are their names.

Martin mantled Akatosh. He is kind of an avatar, not the actual god. Its complicated and thats all I understand.

try http://www.imperial-library.info/ it will help.

Long story. There is the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml in which Lorkhan and the Aedra construct Mundus and end up inprisoning Lorkhan for his betrayal (though in some versions he gives up willingly). Mankar suggests that the Aedra were Lorkhans lieutenants who betrayed him by not continuing.

There is no way to tell what really happened. Mundus does however have quite a few quirks that set it apart from the other Daedric realms. An afterlife, barriers, mortals, ect.




It's never really explained. The game just says he shattered the Amulet.

Myths usually work by association though, so when the Priest of Akatosh, Emperor of Man, shatters the Amulet of Kings containing the souls of the past Emperors, it's not all that strange the King of the Gods, Akatosh shows up.

The location is a bit strange though. The Temple of the One isn't the temple of Akatosh but a remnant of the Allesian order who merged all gods into one unknowable god and until Oblivion the Amulet of Kings was given/made by Shor. Then again Mundus does look like a Dragon, and the Aurbis like two Serpents eating their own tails or a Bird and Serpent (Dragon).

Martin
Wait. Yes. The Amulet was given to mortals by Akatosh... it contains His divine power... But how to use this power against Dagon? The Amulet was not intended as a weapon... I have an idea. One last hope. I must reach the Dragonfires in the Temple of the One.

PC
But you said it was no use...

Martin
You'll just have to trust me. I now know what I was born to do. But I'll need your help. I have to get past Mehrunes Dagon, somehow.

Could the above idea have anything to do with Martin's Knowledge of Daedra magic?

Martin had to shatter the amulet and sacrifice himself somehow in order for Akatosh to appear.
So all souls of every Emperor that existed under the Amulet of Kings are freed to bring about Akatosh

Here is how I would explain what happened at the Temple of the One, somewhat similar to what Proweler already mentioned.

I'd explain the events with something called "mantling". What's "mantling"? Mantling is, in short, playacting - imitating the behaviour of something, in this case, a god. In a world where magic is real and stories and myths have great power, good playacting may well result in not just acting like the god, but becoming him for a time.

Let's see what we have:
We have the legitimate heir to the Septim Empire, a crowned Emperor and the representation of Akatosh (and Lorkhan, but that's a whole different topic) on Mundus.
We have a powerful artifact, containing the Oversoul of all Emperors and the very symbol of the relationship between Akatosh and the Empire/Emperors in the hands of said heir.
We have a dire need and great danger.

So, we have the right person, with the right tool, the dire need and the will to sacrifice himself. The result is (again, this is my opinion, since we have scarce information of what really happened) Martin joining this line of representatives of Akatosh and freeing their power at the same time - going back to Alessia herself and her initial relationship with Akatosh. I think this act has enough power in itself for Martin to manage to mantle Akatosh (and therefore his power) for the purpose of defeating Dagon.

This is all very interesting, but might I ask, Nalion, what you meant when you said there was a representation of Lorkhan?

There's several possible interpertations, but I like to think Tamriel was a daedric realm that was reclaimed by mortals and their Nine Divines. Or maybe the Nine Divines are a club of reformed daedra who've taken pity on the mortals, and Tamriel is actually their realm. Not sure how Lorkhan figures into things though.

It's difficult to precisely differentiate Aedra and Daedra. A general guide is that Aedra tend to be more associated with Anu, Daedra with Padomay. According to some stories Aedra and Daedra become differentiated as a result of the role they play in the creation of Mundus. Lorkhan, either convinces or tricks (or both!) some of the et'Ada to sacrifice themselves to create Mundus, and these become the Aedra; those that don't take part become the Daedra. Assuming this story is correct in its outline, then Lorkhan really isn't an Aedra or a Daedra. Of course, Camoran would reject this story.

The story of Oblivion is about a clash of worldviews (on many different levels). Understanding this clash, and how it plays out in the game, is relevant to both of your questions. Obviously there is the clash between the Septim Empire and the Mythic Dawn. I'd also like to quote a few things said in the main quest related to another level of this clash of worldviews. I'd also suggest you consider how this relates to what Nalion said, above. I've bolded the relavent parts in longer passages, in case you don't want to read all of it.


Martin: Yes, I'm a priest. Do you need a priest? I don't think I'll be much help to you. I'm having trouble understanding the gods right now. If all this is part of a divine plan, I'm not sure I want to have anything to do with it...What plan? What are you talking about? I prayed to Akatosh all through that terrible night, but no help came. Only more daedra. What can you possibly know that would help me make sense of this?

Martin: I haven't always been a priest. In my youth, I followed a different path. I know more than I want to about the seductive power of daedric magic. Let's just leave it at that. Baragon: My lord... I would speak with you. Martin: "My lord"? That isn't necessary. I'm just a man. Just a citizen of the Empire, trying to do his duty. Just like you.

Martin: I put aside the dark arts when I became a priest. But the workings of fate may be seen in this, too. 'The gods can turn anything to good', or so I piously told those who came to see me for advice. Perhaps I may yet come to believe it myself.

Martin: I've learned that the Mysterium Xarxes is both the gate and the key to Camoran's Paradise. In some sense, the book IS Camoran's Paradise. Mankar Camoran bound himself to the Xarxes when he created his Paradise, using dark rituals which I will not speak of further. A gate can be opened from the outside, however. It will be more difficult, as I will have to temporarily bind myself to the book. But I believe it can be done. I will continue working to decipher the arcane items needed for the binding ritual.

Martin: I've figured out another item needed for the ritual to open the portal to Camoran's Paradise. The second item is the counterpart to the first: the blood of a Divine. This was a terrible puzzle to me. Unlike the Daedra Lords, the gods have no artifacts, and do not physically manifest themselves in our world. How then to obtain the blood of a god? But Jauffre solved it. The blood of Tiber Septim himself who became one of the Divines. This is a secret remembered only by the Blades, passed down from one Grandmaster to the next. Jauffre should tell it to you himself. Jauffre: An ancient relic of the first Emperor, who became the divine Talos, the patron of our Order. After the Battle of Sancre Tor, Tiber Septim gave his armor to the Blades in honor of our role in his victory. The Blades built a shrine in the catacombs of Sancre Tor, on the spot where Tiber Septim received the blessing of Akatosh. The Armor has been there ever since. Before evil came to Sancre Tor, this shrine was a place of pilgrimage for all Blades. But no one has visited the shrine and lived to tell the tale in centuries.

Martin: The Septim blood may flow through my veins, but you have the soul of a hero. The Armor of Tiber Septim himself! Jauffre will be amazed to see it. You can reassure Jauffre that I will not destroy the armor. All I need is a scraping of Talos's divine blood. The Blades are as touchy as priests about relics of Tiber Septim, it seems! a little banter to lighten the mood a bit.

Martin: Remember when we first met in Kvatch? I told you that I didn't want any part of the gods' plan. I still don't know if there is a divine plan. But I've come to realize that it doesn't matter. What matters is that we act. That we do what's right, when confronted with evil. That's what you did at Kvatch. It wasn't the gods that saved us, it was you. Were you acting for the gods? I don't know. But now it's my turn to act.

Mankar: Ask yourself! How is it that mighty gods die, yet the Daedra stand incorruptible? How is it that the Daedra forthrightly proclaim themselves to man, while the gods cower behind statues and the faithless words of traitor-priests? It is simple... they are not gods at all. The truth has been in front of you since first you were born: the Daedra are the true gods of this universe. Julianos and Dibella and Stendarr are all Lorkhan's betrayers, posing as divinities in a principality that has lost its guiding light. What are Scholarship, Love, and Mercy when compared to Fate, Night, and Destruction? The gods you worship are trifling shadows of First Causes. They have tricked you for Ages.

Martin: We're too late... Mehrunes Dagon is here! Lighting the Dragonfires will no longer save us... the barriers that protected us from Oblivion are gone... COC: Can we cast him back into Oblivion?Martin: I don't see how... mortal weapons may hurt him, but now that he is physically here in Tamriel, they have no power to actually destroy him. COC: What about the Amulet of Kings? Martin: Wait. Yes. The Amulet was given to mortals by Akatosh... it contains His divine power... But how to use this power against Dagon? The Amulet was not intended as a weapon... I have an idea. One last hope. I must reach the Dragonfires in the Temple of the One. COC: But you said it was no use... Martin: You'll just have to trust me. I now know what I was born to do. But I'll need your help. I have to get past Mehrunes Dagon, somehow. I do what I must do. I cannot stay to rebuild Tamriel. That task falls to others. Farewell. You've been a good friend, in the short time that I've known you. But now I must go. The Dragon waits.

Mantling Eh?
Never Heard of this before.
Its never been in any other Elder Scrolls lore, or has it?

Ok, from what ive gathered of everyones posts is this:

Martin is: "having trouble understanding the gods right now."
Because: "I prayed to Akatosh all through that terrible night, but no help came."
And although he believes that:
"the gods have no artifacts, and do not physically manifest themselves in our world."
Still, he puts his last faith into Akatosh right till the very end.

Martin disappears as Akatosh appears/"physically manifest in our world." All at the same time the Amulet of Kings shatters open

I think Akatosh has taken Martin as a faithful soul/servant to his/her own, as with the rest of the Emperors in the Amulet of Kings, to Strengthen the belief that Akatosh exists. In turn, So that Akatosh could manifest him/her self, into the world for the short period of time, (or does this only apply to Daedra?) to halt Dagon.

Also, Is this the 1st time a Divine has manifested into the world of Tamriel in front of the eyes of mortals?

Some ingame mentions of "Mantling":
"We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers, thus to practice and thus to rapprochement, until finally we might through new eyes leave our hearths without need or fear that she remains behind.
[...]
That is your ward against the Mnemoli. They run blue, through noise, and shine only when the earth trembles with the eruption of the newly-mantled. Tell them "Go! GHARTOK AL MNEM! God is come! NUMI MORA! NUM DALAE MNEM!"
[...]
Starlight is your mantle, brother. Wear it to see by and add its light to Paradise."
http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/mythic_dawn_commentaries.shtml

"Now, though, you have ended the cycle. You now hold the mantle of madness, and Jyggalag is free to roam the voids of Oblivion once more. I will take my leave, and you will remain here, mortal. Mortal...? King? God? It seems uncertain."
http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/si15.shtml

In http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#8, there is also a passage which I interpret as relating to Mantling:
"At which Vivec spoke aloud, 'Boethiah-who-is-you wore the skin of Trinimac to cleanse the faults of Veloth, my Queen, and so it should be again. This is the walking way of the glorious.'"
Also, we know that the three most prominent Daedra in Dunmer culture - Mephala, Boethiah and Azura - are the Anticipations of Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil. There are multiple references in the Sermons of each of the Tribunal representing their respective Daedra (in Dunmeri culture). Also, and that ties in to the Mankar Camoran quote above: Red Mountain exploded when the Tribunal rose to their divine station. "Glorious Ursurpation of worship" (see below).

The most direct reference to Mantling was by MK in a forum post as http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml:
"Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora.""

In the http://www.imperial-library.info/characters/trial_vivec.shtml, Vivec mentions that the Tribunal "gloriously usurped the worship of our Anticipations" and had [i]"supplanted in the orbit of the Chimeri soul those Daedra that predated them, Boethiah and Azura respectively".

The concept of Mantling has been around for some time, as I recon.

EDIT:
Missed to answer this one:

This goes a little off topic, so forgive me for being very brief, the topic is complex and isn't really a thing for just one post. The right direction would be in pointing at the word Enantiomorph. The other thing would be looking at Talos (someone snuck him into the Pantheon when the Altmer didn't pay attention)... and one more thing would be looking closely at http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/trials_st_alessia.shtml and comparing the text with the http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/songofpelinal.sht, while paying attention to these words: "Shezarr", "red rage shaped diamond-fashion" and "sinew".

so so complex, head hurting, defragmentating

The other thing would be looking at Talos (someone snuck him into the Pantheon when the Altmer didn't pay attention)...

Didn't Talos mantle Lorkhan/Shezzar, replacing him in the Pantheon?

Or am I imagining things.

Nalion's and Arynel's posts on this topic are good. I thought I'd add that in "Morrowind" you meet three Aedric avatars: Wulf (Tiber Septim), John Hawker (Zenithar) and an avatar of Mara. This does seem the exception, however, only granted to the Nerevarine. In the case of rescuing John Hawker and Mara's avatar, it seems like a test -- I think the avatars could have escaped their captors at any time, but they waited for you as a test.

Martin didn't return to his faith, he transcended it.

One issue Christian, Jewish, and Muslim philosophers have wrestled with is the (apparent?) conflict between the omniscience of God and human freedom.

Now, slightly different scenario: suppose there are "gods" (divine beings, omniscient or not) with plans. But suppose there are also people, and they have plans too. And, just for fun, imagine that gods can do things which influence the way people behave, and - here's one of my favorite parts - people can do things which influence the way gods behave. So the question is, what prevents this tension devolving into an irreconcilable chaos?

A covenant perhaps?

Under empire, all wills are one.

Mantling.

"Each event is preceded by Prophecy.
But without the hero,
there is no Event."
- Zurin Arctus, the Underking

Yes. He did it by acting like Akatosh/Lorkhan.

Spare me

Keep in mind that Martin didn't summon or become Akatosh. He became his avatar. I don't remember where I found it exactly but It said "Martin harnessed the power of Akatosh momentarily to banish Mehrunes Dagon (that part isn't exact wording but the next part is), afterward Martin was punished by Akatosh for shattering the Amulet to become a stone statue for the rest of time" Which makes it seem like that Akatosh was mad the amulet was destroyed. Even if it was used for a positive purpose.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

You might want to look into the source of that. It's not from the game.

If I understand "Trials of St. Allessia" the Dragonfires, lit with the Amulet of Kings, are to keep the Daedra from invading Tamriel - hence the need to control the AoK and put off lighting the Dragonfires for the purposes of Dagon's invasion. With the shattering of the AoK and the mantling of Akatosh, Martin makes the Daedric invasion impossible for all time. My question is why or how? How is it that this one act forever stops invasions like what we've seen in OB? And what is the significance of the statue of Akatosh? Is Akatosh now truly the God of gods?

There are a few more hooks and angles too the whole story but suffice to say that the Dragon Fires were one of the things that reinforced the barrier between here and Oblivion. When they stopped burning the Daedra could invade, now it seems the Statue of Akatosh replaced the fire.
This won't prevent an invasion from ever happening again. The statue could be shattered or as it is only one of the things that reinforce the barrier, one of the other could cease to work.

Akatosh, Auri-El, has always been the King of Gods. I'm not sure about the significance of the statue. If anything Martin truly became the Emperor in the mythic sense. Though this also seems to be the end of the dynamic invincibility of the Empire. An Empire without symbol of the Emperor can not have an Emperor.

But ask Nalion.

Well I read on the UESP the saying that Oblivion is all around Tamriel wich could say that Tamriel is another part of it..... Besides You would say that the Amulet of Kings (The burning of the Dragon Fires) prevents Daedra Invasions... But then came the Shivering Isles.... How could Sheogorath create the portal while the seal is remade again??? Cuz if he wanted he could just have sent a few hundreds of Saints and Seducers through the portal, swim to Bravil and ransack it..... And thus the fact that Tamriel and Oblivion are sealed form each other does this also makes events like what happened on Solstheim also impossible.... It was also some kind of invasion......

*with Tamriel I mean Nirn

See http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=962345, there's been some discussion on your questions there.

That's because there are nuances.

The Barrier only stops living things from Oblivion. Liminal Bridges calls them "quickened objects or entities" . So artefacts, items, and other such things can enter. In this respect, Sheogoraths little island is nothing more then one big Daedric artefact.

Hircine's hunt is a special occurrence. The events leading up to the hunt were saturated with the elements of his sphere so that he could enter. It's comparable to Mehrunes entry as described in http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/aldudagga.shtml#2.

I thought it was possible because the portal to sheogoraths plane was an "invitation portal" and so it didnt break any rules of law. Haskill says something like that when you enter

And that's correct, it's not a portal that makes anyone enter or letting anyone out, it's very much up to the person if he/she wants to enter or not.